HARVARD COLLEGE
LIBRARY
GIFT OF THE
GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA— PART 3
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES
• EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
JUNE 6, 1956
rriuted for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INDEX IN PART 4 OF THIS SERIES)
HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRARU
DEPOSITED BY THE
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENt
OCT 5 2956
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
81.'594 WASHINGTON : 1956
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois
CLYDE DOYLE, California BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York
JAMES B. FRAZIER.Je., Tennessee DONALD L. JACKSON, California
EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio
Richard Arens, Director
II
CONTENTS
Executive Hearings (See Pt. 3)'
June 2, 1956: Testimony of— Page
Joseph John Schoemehl 4949
Lo val Hamniack 4966
George V. L. Hardy 4971
June 4, 1956: Testimony of —
Joseph John Schoemehl (resumed) 4979
Obadiah Jones 4981
Public Hearings
PART 1
June 4, 1956: Testimony of— Pa^e
William W. Cortor 4724
Afternoon session:
William W. Cortor (resumed) 4758
James H. Sage 4761
Elliott Waxman 4794
Leslie S. Davison 4793
Sol S. Nissen 4794
John William Simpson 4798
PART 2
June 5, 1956: Testimony of —
John William Simpson (resumed) 4803
William Henry Holland 4808
Harvey John Dav 4818
Thelma Hecht (Mrs. Julius Hecht) 4825
Brockman Schumacher 4829
Thomas A. Younglove 4834
Afternoon session:
Thomas A. Younglove (resumed) 4845
Orville Leach 4864
Zollie C. Carpenter 4869
James Payne 4876
Helen Aukamp Sage (Mrs. James H. Sage) 4883
PART 3
June 6, 1956: Testimony of —
Dr. Sol Londe 4889
William Edwin Davis 4895
Ida Holland (Mrs. William Henry Holland) 4899
Edwin Leslie Richardson 4902
Aiine (Ann) Yasgur Kling 4912
Afternoon session:
Anne (Ann) Yasgur Kling (Resumed) 4920
Gilbert Harold Hall 4940
Richard L. Stanford 4944
Romey Hudson 4945
» Released by the committee August 24, 1956 and ordered to be printed.
Ill
IV CONTENTS
PART 4
June 8, 1956: Testimony of — Page
Helen Musiel 4993
Hershel James Walker 5000
George Kimmel 5004
Hershel James Walker (recalled) 5014
Linus E. Wampler 5017
George Kimmel (recalled) 5026
Afternoon session:
Dr. John F. Rutledge 5028
Ella Mae Posey Pappademos 5051
Clara Perkins (Mrs. Haven Perkins) 5058
Haven Perkins 5065
Julius Hecht 5069
Sol Derman 5070
Douglas MacLeod 5072
Index ._. i
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress (1946), chapter
753, 2d session, which provides:
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
17. Coinniittee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American Activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-America.n propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces-
sary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sifting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 84TH CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 5, 1955
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress,
*******
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
*******
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OP COMMITTEES
4c ***** *
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American Activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in
any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance of
such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and to
take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the
signature of the chau-man of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA— PART 3
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 6, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Committee on
Un-American Activities,
St. Louis, Mo.
public hearing
A siibcomniittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 9:45 a. m., pm'suant to recess, in com'troom No. 3, United States
Courthouse and Customs Building, St. Louis, Mo., Hon. Morgan M.
Moulder (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Morgan M. Moulder,
of Missouri, James B. Frazier, Jr., of Tennessee, and Gordon H.
Scherer, of Ohio.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel, George C.
Williams and Raymond T. Collins, investigators.
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Will you call your next witness, please, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Sol Londe, will you come forward, please, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Will you raise yom- right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. Londe. I do.
Mr. Moulder. The committee wishes to announce that we are
highly honored and pleased to have with us in the hearing room Mr.
Richards, the United States District Attorney.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
TESTIMONY OF DR. SOL LONDE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
MARK M. HENNELLY
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?
Dr. Londe. Sol Londe.
Mr. Tavenner. Dr. wSol Londe?
Dr. Londe. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by counseL
Will counsel please identify himself for the record.
Mr. Hennelly. Mark M. Hennelly, H-e-n-n-e-1-l-y.
Mr. Tavenner. Attorney of the St. Louis bar?
Mr. Hennelly. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien and where were you born, Dr. Londe?
4889
4890 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Dr. LoNDE. I was born in St. Louis, Mo., on January 12, 1904.
Mr. TxiVENNER. Are you a medical practitioner?
Dr. LoNDE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a specialist in any field, or a general
practitioner?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Dr. LoNDE. I am a pediatrician.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you engaged in the practice of medicine in
St. Louis?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Dr. LoNDE. Yes, su\
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been so engaged^in the city of
St. Louis?
Dr. LoNDE. Since 1932, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly, what
your formal educational training has been.
Dr. Londe. All of my education has been in St. Louis public schools,
Central High School; a B. S. degree at Washington University; and
M. D., Washington University Medical School.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you receive yom- training at Washing-
ton University?
Dr. Londe. From 1921 to 1923 m college, and from 1923 to 1927 in
medical school.
A^Ir. Tavenner. I am sorry I did not get the last.
Dr. Londe. 1921 to 1923 at the college, and 1923 to 1927 at the
medical school.
Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Londe, the committee heard, in executive
session, the testmiony of Mr. Joseph John Schoemehl. Mr. Schoe-
melil was asked the question "Are you acquainted with a person by
the name of Dr. Sol Londe?"
I want to read to you the answer that he gave, and 1 or 2 questions
asked the witness inasmuch as this relates to you.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Schoemehl, are you acquainted with a person by the name
of Dr. Sol Londe?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known by you to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. He was.
Mr. Tavenner. On what do you base your statement that he was a member
of the Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. When I was the unit organizer of a unit on the South Side,
Dr. Londe and the woman whom he married later were assigned to my unit to
attend a couple of meetings in order to learn how to conduct a meeting of the
Communist Party. This was done at the orders of the district organizer at that
time. He informed me that Dr. Londe and his fiancee were going to set up a
professional unit of the Communist Party, membership to be limited entirely to
professional people, and that Dr. Londe was to be the unit organizer of that unit.
They attended 2 meetings, to my knowledge — it may have been 3 — at which
they sat in at the meetings and asked me about different matters as to how things
were being conducted.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Dr. Londe, while attending your meetings, indicate to
you in any manner that he had been assigned for that particular type of work?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes. When ho came to the meeting that night he intro-
duced himself and had credentials there from the district organizer instructing
me to permit him to attend the meetings. No outsider was permitted to attend
a unit meeting unless he was known as an official of the party. And that was
done in order that I would permit him to sit in at the meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the year in which that occurred?
Mr. Schoemehl. That occurred sometime prior to 1938.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4891
I do not propose to ask jo\i any questions relating to the person
referred to as your wife. I only want to ask you regarding your own
activities.
Will you tell the committee, please, whether this testimony given
and as read to you, insofar as it affected you or referred to you, is in
any way untrue?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Dr. LoNDE. I decline to answer that under the privilege granted me
by the fifth amendment, which states that no person shall be forced
to bear witness against himself.
Mr. Tavexner. I think I should state, Mr. Chairman, for the
record that Mr. Schoemelil in the course of his testimony advised the
committee that he had become a member of the Communist Party at
the request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and that during
the period of his connection with the Communist Party he was doing
so in the performance of official duties.
I think the record should also show that the reason for takmg Mr.
Schoemehl's testimony in executive session was that he is presently
in ill health under doctor's care, and questioning could not be continued
for m^uch more than 15 or 20 minutes at a time.
The purpose in calling you as a witness, Dr. Londe, is to obtain from
you, if you will give it, such information as you have regarding the
organization of a professional group of the Communist Party in St.
Louis, the manner in which it functioned and the extent of its member-
ship, and what its objectives are.
Did 3^ou organize a professional group of the Communist Party in
the area of St. Louis?
(The witness confers Avith his counsel.)
Dr. Londe. Su', I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the privilege granted me by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenxee. Are you a member of an organized group of the
Communist Party composed of professional people in the area of
St. Louis?
Dr. Londe. I decline to answer that question, invoking the same
privilege previously stated.
Mr. Tavennee. Will you tell the committee the extent of the
membership of the professional group of the Communist Party in
St. Louis, if you know.
Dr. Londe. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavennee. Dr. Londe, the committee, during the course of
this hearing, has heard considerable evidence regarding activities in
which members of the Comm.unist Party were asked to engage — •
that is, activities in mass organizations. One of the mass organizations
was the Civil Rights Congress.
Were you identified in any manner with the Civil Rights Congress?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Dr. Londe. I decline to answer that under the privilege granted me
by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavennee. The committee's investigation has disclosed that
on May 6, 1950, you were chairman of the St. Louis chapter of the
National Council of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions. I want to
ask you questions relating to the activities of that group and the extent,
if any, to which it was organized and controlled by the Communist
Party. > : ;
4892 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Were you chaii*man of the St. Louis chapter of the National Council
of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions?
Dr. LoNDE. I decline to answer that question under the privilege of
the fifth amendment previously invoked, and also under the fu'st and
ninth amendments, as this question invades certain rights granted by
those amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. On the 6th day of May 1950, were you aware that
the National Council of the Ai'ts, Sciences, and Professions, that is the
national organization, had been cited as a Communist front by this
committee?
(Representative Alorgan M. Moulder left the hearing room at this
point.)
(The witness confers with, his counsel.)
Dr. LoNDE. Sir, I decline to answer that question under the privi-
lege of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I think the record should show that that action
was taken by this committee on April 19, 1949.
I have before me a photostatic copy of the October 20, 1954, issue
of the Daily Worker which carries a headline to this effect: "175
Notables in Open Letter to President Urge Amnesty for Smith Act
Victims."
Examination of the article discloses the names of many of those
who signed that open letter, and, among them, is the name of Sol
Londe, M. D., St. Louis.
Do you recall having signed such a letter?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. And, if you desu-e to look at the article to refresh
your recollection, I now hand it to you.
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. It is on the second page. Your name is under-
scored in red.
Dr. Londe. Su-, I decline to answer that question under the privilege
of the fifth amendment previously invoked.
Mr. Tavenner. Don't misunderstand me. Anyone has a right to
address a letter to the President of the United States on any subject
that he may desire.
My reason for asking you that question is to find out whether or
not the Communist Party instigated this matter.
The committee wants to know to what extent the various propa-
ganda moves made dm-ing this period of tune were the responsibility
of the Communist Party.
Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not you were re-
quested by anyone known to you to be a member of the Communist
Party to take part in a plan to secure amnesty for the Communists,
the leading Communists in the country, who were convicted under
the Smith Act m New York?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Dr. Londe. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you one of those who participated in a plan
to secure amnesty for those convicted under the Smith Act?
Dr. Londe. I decline, reinvoking my privilege imder the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Investigation made by the staff has resulted in the
production of a photostatic copy of an article in the April 12, 1948,
COMMUNIST ACTR'ITIES IX ST. LOIHS, MO., AREA 4.893
issue of tlie St. Louis Post-Dispatch which carries an article relating
to the establishment of tlie Wallace Third Party as organized in Mis-
souri. This article shows the names of members of tlie State com-
mittee from some of the congi-essional districts. For instance, in the
12th District it is said the State committee members were Dr. Sol
Londe, Al Friedman, Mrs. Olive Heffner, and one other person.
Did you serve on that committee with Al Friedman and Mrs. Olive
Heffner as representatives from the 12th District?
Dr. Londe. ^Vliat was that question, sir? I didn't hear a question.
Mr. Tavenner. I said, Did you serve on the State committee with
Al Friedman and Mrs. Olive Heffner as representatives of the 12th
District ?
(The M-itness confers with his counsel.)
Dr. Londe. Sir, I refuse to answer that question, fu-st of all, under
the first amendment as invading certain rights which are guaranteed
by that amendment, and under the fifth amendment granting a person
the right not to bear witness against himself, and under the ninth
amendment as also invading fundamental rights of the individual,
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquamted with Al Friedman?
(The ^^•itness confers with his counsel.)
Dr. Londe. I invoke the same amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Olive Heffner?
Dr. Londe. I invoke the same amendments previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Both of those individuals have been identified
during the course of testimony under oath given here as members of
the Communist Party.
Were either of them known to jou to be members of the Communist
Party?
Dr. Londe. I invoke my privilege under the fifth amendment, and
decline to answer that question also.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, to what
extent the Communist Party in St. Louis was instrumental in the
formation of a so-called political party in 1948.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Dr. Londe. I decline to answer that question under the privileges
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you directed or encouraged by the Com-
munist Party in the city of St. Louis to take an active part m the
Progressive Party in 1948?
Dr. Londe. I invoke the same privilege, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I do not believe I asked you whether you are now
a resident of St. Louis.
Dr. Londe. I am a resident of University City, which is a suburb
of St. Louis.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your address?
Dr. Londe. 7320 Colgate!
Mr. Tavenner. Do you maintain an office in St. Louis proper?
Dr. Londe. Yes, sh'.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chaii-man.
Mr. Frazier (presiding). Any questions, Mr. Scherer?
Air. Scherer. Dr. Londe, the committee has found from the testi-
mony taken in various parts of the country that the Communist cells
among professional people were highly effective and that in practic-
ally all cases the membership of those cells was kept extremely secret.
No party cards were issued to the members of professional cells.
4894 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
As I said, the work of those cells, because of the character of the
membership, was higlily effective.
We feel that you have some valuable information concerning the
professional cell of the Communist Party in the area of St. Louis. The
committee would like to have that information, the Government would
like to have that information.
You have refused to answer the significant questions asked you by
Mr. Tavenner on the grounds that your answers might tend to in-
criminate 3"ou.
The committee has the right, as I told two other witnesses j^ester-
day and the day before, to grant you immunity from prosecution so
that, no m.atter what answer you gave in response to the questions
asked you, it could not result in any possible criminal prosecution.
If the committee should decide to grant you that immunity because
of the importance of the information which we knov/ you have, would
you then testify?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Dr. LoNDE. Sir, this is a question which would requhe a great deal
of thought and consideration.
It is a hypothetical question which deals with the future, and at the
present time I could not give an answer to that.
Mr. ScnERER. It is not a hypothetical question. It may require
a great deal of thought. But assuming that after you and your able
counsel — one of the most able members of the bar here in St. Louis,
so I am informed — after lengthy consideration you slould come to the
conclusion that you could not be prosecuted as a result of any answers
you might give to these questions— and the Supreme Court bas ^vit^in
the last 30 days held that that law is constitutional — if, aiter that
consultation and consideration, you sJ ould be advised or you should
come to the conclusion definitely that no prosecution could result
because of the immunity granted j-ou by the committee, would you
then answer the questions asked?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Dr. LoxDE. It is still a question that I cannot answer at the present
moment.
Mr. ScHERER. Doctor, when you answer that way then there is
some question, at least in mj mind, whether you invoke the fifth
amendment in good faith.
Don't misunderstand me.
I think you have the right to invoke the fifth amendment. But I
don't think you fear criminal prosecution.
That is all.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. WilKam, E. Davis.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which
you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Davis. I do.
COMMTJlSriST ACTIVITIES IN" ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4895
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM E. DAVIS
Mr. Tavenner. You are Air. William E. Davis?
Mr. Davis. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are not accompanied by
counsel.
I want to advise you, as it is the practice of the committee with
respect to all witnesses who appear before it, that they have the right
to counsel if they desu'e it, and have the right to consult with counsel
at any time duiing the course of the interrogation.
AVlien and where were you born, Mr. Williams?
Mr. Davis I meant to say.
Air. Davis. I decline to answer the question on the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. ScHERER. I can't hear.
Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction?
Mr. Scherer. What was the question?
Mr. Tavenner. The question was when and where were you born.
Mr. Scherer. Did he give his name?
Did you ask him his name?
Mr. Tavenner. I asked him if he was William E. Davis, and he
said yes.
Mr. Scherer. Then I ask that you dii-ect the witness to answer the
question as to when and where he was born.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Davis. I reassert vaj privilege.
Mr. Scherer. I think we should say to the witness, as we are
required to say by the decisions of the com't, that of com'se we do not
accept your answer, that we cannot possibly see, su', how to answer
the question as to when and where you were born would incriminate
you.
Therefore, we think 3"ou are invoking the fifth amendment, improp-
erly invoking it, in bad faith, and if you persist to refuse to answer
the question as to when and where you were born you are placing
yom'self in a position of contempt before tliis committee.
Do you want to answer the question after my explanation?
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. Scherer. Wliat do you mean by reasserting the privilege?
Mr. Davis. Privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Do you honestly perceive that to answer the ques-
tion — Do 3"0u honestly believe and contend that to answer the ques-
tion as to when and where you were born might tend to lead to a
criminal prosecution?
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. Scherer. Do you want a lawyer? Because I am afraid, sir,
you are guilty of contempt. Do jou want a lawyer to advise you as
to whether or not you should answer that question?
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. Scherer. Do you mean to answer my question as to whether
you want a lawyer would tend to incriminate you?
I ask you direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
And Mr. Scherer and the committee are anxious to, of com'se, help
you in that respect.
4896 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. ScHERER. It is obvious that this witness came here as the
result of attending one of those conferences wherein they advised them
to use the fifth amendment no matter what question was asked them.
I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that counsel be permitted to ask a few
more questions.
Mr. Moulder. Yes.
Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. I expect I ought to follow them up.
Mr. ScHERER. That is what I say.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your full name, Mr. Davis?
Mr. Davis. Wilham E. Davis.
Mr. Tavenner. Speak a little louder, please.
Mr. Davis. William E. Davis. William Ed\vin Davis.
Mr. Tavenner. Do 3^ou presentl}^ reside in St. Louis?
Mr. Davis. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How are you employed?
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. What is jour address in St. Louis?
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question as to where he was employed.
And I do not want to restate, but, Witness, what I have said to
3'^ou w^ith reference to the first question asked you, as to where and
when you were born, applies also to the question asked you about
your employment.
Mr. Moulder. You are directed to answer the question, Mr.
Davis.
As we have advised other \A'itnesses, the purpose of so dh-ecting you
is not to threaten you in any way but to give you an opportunity to
be advised that the committee doesn't accept your response to the
question; and also to warn you of the possibility of your being in
contempt of the Congress of the United States for refusing to answer
such a question, such a simple question as you are now refusing to
answer.
Mr. Davis. I assert m^^ privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have 3'ou lived in St. Louis?
Mr. Davis. I assert my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that j^ou direct the witness to answer.
Mr. AIouLDER. The witness is again directed to answer the question.
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you in St. Louis, living in St. Louis as recently
as 1954?
IMr. Davis. I was.
ISlr. Tavenner. Were 3'OU living in St. Louis in 1950?
Mr. Davis. I assert mj privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you living in 1951?
Mr. Davis. I assert ni}' privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that 3'Ou direct the witness to answer the
question as to where he was living in 1951.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. Scherer. Where did you go to school, Witness?
Mr. Davis. I reassert laj privilege.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you du-ect the witness to answer.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4897
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask a question.
Do you desii'e to have counsel or an attorney to advise you and to
sit with you here in the hearing room, to advise you during the course
of the examination now being conducted?
I say do you desire to have counsel?
Mr. Davis. No.
Mr. Moulder. Would you answer the question for the record so
that it will indicate.
Mr. Davis. No.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you had legal advice before you took the
stand?
Mr. Davis. I assert my privilege.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. ScHERER. As to whether he had legal advice.
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you had any advice at all from any source as
to how you should conduct yourself when you took the stand?
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask you dhect (he witness to answer.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is dhected to answer.
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. ScHERER. Wliere you born in the United States?
(There was no response.)
Mr. Moulder. The question is were you born in the United States.
Mr. Davis. I assert my privilege.
Mr. Moulder. You are directed to answer the c[uestion.
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. Moulder. Are you an American citizen, Mr. Davis?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sh.
Mr. Moulder. Are you a natural-born citizen or naturalized
citizen?
Mr. Davis. Natural born.
Mr. Moulder. Then you were born in the United States?
Mr. ScHERER. Is that right?
(There was no response.)
Mr. Moulder. Is that correct? Answer that question.
Mr. Davis. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. Where were you born?
Mr. Davis. A question like this is, as the Congressman on the
right is always waiting for the door to fly open, you know
Mr. Moulder. I have asked you a question: where you were born.
Mr. Davis. So he can lower the boom on me.
Mr. Moulder. We have no desire to trap you or lower the boom.
We asked you a simple and reasonable and fair question.
Would you answer the question as to where you were born?
Mr. Davis. I assert my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you employed at any time at Emerson
Electric Co.?
Mr. Davis. I assert my privilege under the fifth amendment.
4898 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Were you the St. Louis agent of the National
Maritime Union at any time prior to 1951?
Mr. Davis. I assert my privilege under the fifth amendment.
' Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time held any official position
in the United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America?
Mr. Davis. I assert my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Air. Tavenner. Have jou held a position under that of an official,
that is such as a steward or other similar type of position?
Mr. Davis. In what?
Mr. Tavenner. In the UE.
Mr. Davis. I assert my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHBRER. I again ask that you direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Moulder. You are again du'ected and requested to answer the
question.
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any knowledge of Communist Party
activities since 1954 at Emerson Electric?
Mr. Davis. I assert my privilege under the fifth amendment,
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of tlie Communist Party?
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Davis. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. I neglected to ask you, Mr. Frazier, do you have
any questions?
Mr. Frazier. No cpiestions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused, and he may claim his wit-
ness fees from the Clerk of the Committee.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I 'move that the subcommittee
recommend to the full committee that William E. Davis be cited for
contempt of Congress.
Mr. Frazier. Second.
Mv. Moulder. The motion has been made by Mr. Scherer, of Ohio,
and seconded by JVIr. Frazier, of Tennessee, that the witness William
E. Davis be cited for contempt of the United States Congress.
Vote will be recorded by the subcommittee as follows — the roll is
called as follows:
Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. Aye.
• Mr. Moulder. Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. Aye.
Mr. Moulder. And myself, Alorgan Moulder, votes aye.
The motion is carried and the recommendation will be duly made
to the full committee to cite Wdliam E. Davis for contempt.
Mr. Moulder. Call the next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Ida Holland.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please,
Mrs. Holland.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4899
give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you, God?
Mrs. Holland. I do.
Mr. Moulder. Be seated, please.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. IDA HOLLAND
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please?
Mrs. Holland. My name is Mrs. Ida Holland.
Mr. Tavenner. H-o-l-l-a-n-d?
Mrs. Holland. That is right, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are not accompanied by coun-
sel. You are advised that you have the right to consult comisel at any
time during your appearance as a witness, or to ha,ve counsel with you:
Are you Mrs. Vv. Henry Holland?
Mrs. Holland. Yes, I am.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Holland, the committee received evidence
the day before yesterday from Mr. Cortor that he attended Com-
munist Party meetings in your home, that your husband W. Henry
Holland w^as the leader or head of his Communist Party group in an
automotive branch of the Conmimiist Party ; that you attended several
of those meetings, and that you said that 3'ou were a member of
another group.
I desire to ask you, of what group of the Communist Party w'ere you
a member?
Mrs. Holland. What part of that w^as your question, sir? Would
you repeat, please.
Mr. Tavenner. Of wdiat group of the Communist Party were you
a member?
Mrs. Holland. I assert my privilege under the rights granted me
by the fifth amendment to the Constitution of the United States in
not answering that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Mr. Cortor tell this committee the truth when
he said that you were a member of another group of the Communist
Party and not the one of which he was a member?
^\lrs. Holland. I reassert my privilege, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Part}^?
Mrs. Holland. I reassert my privilege, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Comm^mist
Party?
Mrs. Holland. I reassert my privilege, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
educational training has been.
Mrs. Holland. I reassert my privilege, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further cjuestions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question as to her educational training.
Mr. Moulder. Yes; the witness is directed and requested to answer
the question as to her educational training, as stated by Mr. Scl erer.
The committee doesn't accept your ansv.-er, and certainly to answer
that question would not tend to incriminate j^ou in any way.
Mrs. Holland. Sir, I sincerely believe that any testimony given
to this committee might tend to incriminate me. Therefore, I must
reassert my privilege.
81594— 56— pt. 3 2
4900 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. ScHERER. Is it for that reason that you invoke the privilege,
because you beheve that any testimony given this committee might
tend to incriminate you?
Mrs. Holland. No, sir. I was directing my answer to Chairman
Moulder in answering his one particular question.
Mr. ScHERER. You said that 3^ou feel that any testimony given to
this committee might tend to incriminate you.
Mrs. Holland. I was answering, sir, one specific question asked
of me.
Mr. ScHERER. Wliat specific question were you answering?
Mrs. Holland. I was asked —
May I please have that question repeated, sir?
Mr. ScHERER. To save the time, what is your educational back-
ground?
Mrs. Holland. Chairman, who am I addressing at this point? I
am confused.
Mr. Moulder. Well, I believe our conversation was along this
line: I said I couldn't understand how your answering a question in
giving information as to your educational training could possibly tend
to incriminate you. I believe you stated that you beheved that the
answer to any question^ — ■ — ■
Mrs. Holland. May I clarify my answer to you. Chairman?
Mr. Moulder. Yes, you may.
Mrs. Holland. May I restate my answer this way in clarification
of my original answer:
Any testimony given to this committee concerning any part of my
formal education might be used in criminal prosecution at some time
against me.
Mr. Moulder. I can assure you that it most certainly would not be.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. How long have you lived in St. Louis?
Mrs. Holland. I reassert my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Do you honestly believe that to answer the question
as to how long you have lived in the city of St. Louis might result in a
cruninal prosecution?
Mrs. Holland. Yes, sir; I sincerely do.
Mr. Scherer. Wliere were you born?
Mrs. Holland. I reassert my privilege, sir.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question as to where she was born.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is so directed.
Mrs. Holland. Sir, my answer is the same to this question as to the
other question which I answered to you a minute ago.
Mr. Moulder. Li so directing you to answer we want you to clearly
understand the committee is not in any way threatening you to
compel you to answer.
It is our duty to advise you, liowever, that we do not accept your
responses to the questions propounded to .you, and to further advise
you that there is a possibility that your refusal to answer the questions
might make you guilty of contempt.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4901
Mrs. Holland. Then I will answer the question this way:
I sincerely believe that answering Mr. Scherer's question as so
stated might tend to criminally — be used in criminal prosecution
against me.
Mr. Moulder. You are claiming the privilege imder the fifth
amendment. Is that your purpose?
Mrs. Holland. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Were you born in the United States?
Mrs. Holland. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. ^Vliere in the United States?
Mrs. Holland. I reassert my privilege, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, there was no direction to answer the
question as to how long she has lived in St. Louis, and I ask that you
direct the witness to answer that question.
Mr. Moulder. You are so directed, Mrs. Holland.
Airs. Holland. I reassert my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Where do you live now?
Mrs. Holland. I reassert my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that jou dii'ect the witness to answer the ques-
tion as to where she lives because I can't possibly see how where she
lives now could possibly tend to incriminate her.
Mr. Moulder. You are so directed, Mrs. Holland.
Mrs. Holland. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask ia few more questions.
Are you married?
Mrs. Holland. Yes, I am.
Mr. Moulder. And when were you married?
Mrs. Holland. I reassert my privilege, sir.
Mr. Moulder. You then take the position before this committee
that to state and tell the date of your marriage might tend to incrim-
inate 3^ou and subject you to possible criminal prosecution?
Mrs. Holland. Yes, I sincerely do.
Mr. Moulder. Do you wish to have counsel to advise you on those
cpiestions?
Mrs. Holland. No, sir. Thank you.
Mr. Moulder. And do you wish to ask this witness any more ques-
tions, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. One question.
Are you a college graduate?
Mrs. Holland. I reassert my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that the witness be du-ected to answer.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Have you consulted an attorney, and have you had any legal advice
as to your conduct in appearing before this committee as a witness?
Mrs. Holland. I reassert my privilege.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct her to answer.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Holland. I reassert my privilege, sir.
Mr. Moulder. It is very unfortunate, Airs. Holland, that you take
the position that you have taken in your appearance before this com-
mittee, in your very determined refusal to answer any questions.
And so I believe that you, of course, should be subjected to the
same treatment as any other witness that appears before the com-
mittee even though vou are a woman.
4902 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
I SO recommend to the committee.
Mr. ScHERER. Second, that she be cited for contempt.
I recommend to the full committee she be cited for contempt,
Mr. Moulder. You are excused as a witness.
We will have the record show that the motion has been made and
seconded, that the witness Ida Holland be cited for contempt, and that
this subcommittee recommend to the full committee that such action
be taken, that she be cited for contempt of the United States Corgress.
The vote on this motion is now taken.
Mr. Scherer of Ohio?
Mr. Scherer. Aye.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. Aye.
Mr. Moulder. And I, chairman of the subcommittee, vote aye in
favor of the motion.
Call your next witness, please, Mr. Tavenner.
Tlie committee will stand in recess for a period of 5 mmutes.
(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken, there being present at the
time of taking the recess Representatives Moulder, Frazier, and
Scherer.)
(The subcommittee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess,
there being present Representatives Moulder and Frazier.)
(Representative Gordon H. Scherer entered the hearing room at
this point.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Call your next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Edwin L. Richardson.
Mr. Moulder. Please be sworn, Mr. Richardson.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give before the subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Richardson. I do.
TESTIMONY OF EDWIN LESLIE RICHAEDSON, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, FRANK WOLFF
Mr. Wolff. Let the record show that the witness is represented by
Frank Wolff, W-o-l-f-f, attorney at law, with offices in the Buder
Building, admitted to practice by the Missouri Supreme Court in
1924, and also admitted to practice in the Federal court since February
1926.
Mr. Moulder. All right, Mr. Wolff.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, sir?
Mr. Richardson. Edwin Leslie Richardson.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Richardson?
Mr. Richardson. I was born in St. Louis February 4, 1925.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside?
Mr. Richardson. I reside at 4103 Garfield in St. Louis.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a resident of St. Louis?
Mr. Richardson. I have been in or around St. Louis all my life.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4903
Mr. Richardson. I am a graduate of Culver-Stockton College in
Canton, Mo.
Mr. Tavenner. \Vliat was the date of your graduation?
Mr. Richardson. I can't remember.
Mr. Tavenner. You can remember the j^ear; can't 3^ou, Mr.
Richardson? Not the exact date of the month, but I mean the year
of your gi'aduation.
(The witness confers with liis counsel.)
\[r. Richardson. I remember it was 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. What degree did you receive?
(The witness confers \\"ith his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. Bachelor of arts degree.
Air. Tavenner. Have you had any other college work other than
at Culver-Stockton College?
Mr. Richardson. Part of the college credits that I got I didn't earn
at that college. I got tliem from my naval-aviation experience.
Mr. Tavenner. While you were in the Armed Forces of the United
States?
Mr. Richardson. For 3 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was the period of your service in the Army?
Mr. Richardson. 1943 through 1946 as I remember it. It was
two hitches in the Navy.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you enter Culver-Stockton College after your
discharge from the Navy?
Mr. Richardson. I entered prior to my enlistment in the Navy.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you also enter it after your return from your
naval service?
Mr. Richardson. I returned to school under the GI bill of rights.
Mr. Tavenner. So you returned to school in 1946. You probably
did not get your degree that year. You were probably there several
years, weren't you?
Mr. Richardson. Wait just a minute.
I can't remember too much the years that that took pla<;e.
Mr. Tavenner. In what subject did 3^011 major?
Mr. Richardson. I majored in religion and minored in sociology.
And while I was at the school the last 2 years I was a student
minister, and I had 1 church in Ursa, 111., and 1 in Knox City, Mo.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you an ordained minister?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. No; I wasn't.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation now? '
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I work in a factory.
Mr. Tavenner. In what factory?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. Graham Paper Co.
Mr. Tavenner. In St. Louis?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you begin your emplovment at Graham
Paper Co.?
Mr. Richardson. About 3 years ago, I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you an application for employment with
Graham Paper Co., bearing date of October 12, 1953. Will you
4904 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
examine it, please, and state whether that is your application for
emplojTnent.
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. What was the question ?
Mr. Tavenner. My question was, is this application for employ-
ment your application?
Mr. Richardson. I decline to answer on the grounds that the
answer might incriminate me, under the fifth amendment of the
Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. Is the signature Edwin L. Richardson appearing
at the bottom of the document j^our signature?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I reassert my privilege under the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence, marked
"Richardson Exhibit No. 1," for identification purposes in the records
of the committee.
Mr. Moulder. The document will be so marked.
(The document referred to was marked "Richardson Exhibit No.
1," and filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Richardson, do you recall the occasion of
June 18, 1951, at 3^oiu' home when James Sage was arrested?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I wish to reassert my privilege. I decline to
answer on the grounds of tlie fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. There was found in the automobile of Mr. James
Sage, parked in front of your house on June 18, 1951, a notebook con-
taining names of numerous persons who have been shown during the
course of this hearing to have been members of the Communist Party.
(Representative Morgan M, Moulder left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Tavenner. That notebook contained a breakdown of various
groups in this area by number and by name. It also included memo-
randums indicating that the individuals on that list were expecting to
take carloads of people to Chicago to attend a convention held there.
We have also shown that the convention to be held in Chicago was
under the auspices of the American Peace Crusade.
Was the matter of attendance at that convention discussed at your
home on the 18tli of June 1951, by James Sage and others?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I wish to reassert my right under the fifth
amendment not to answer that question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Was there a propaganda moving picture film dis-
played at your home on the 18th of June 1951?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. The same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there a police raid at your home on the 18th
day of June 1951?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. Same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. The application for employment at the Graham
Paper Co. bears date of October 12, 1953. Were you a member of
the Communist Party on that day?
COISIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4905
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. Same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. The staff, in the course of its investigation, has
received from Culver-Stockton College your record while at school.
It shows you were awarded a bachelor of arts degree on January 24,
1948. Does that refresh your recollection as to the time that you
graduated?
(The witness confers M'ith his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. And, if you desire, I will hand it to 3^ou so that
you may refresh your recollection. It is quite a commendable record
and shows an outstanding scholastic achievement on your part.
You will find the date of the awarding of the degree and your gradua-
tion on the reverse side of the sheet.
(Document handed to the witness and his counsel.)
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. M}^ question was:
Does that refresh your recollection as to the time that you received
your degree?
That is the only question I am going to ask you about that record.
It is merely a matter to refresh your recollection.
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Richardson. It doesn't refresh my memory because I don't
remember. I said before to the best I could remember.
Mr. Tavenner. You still do not remember after seeing the record
of yoiu" graduation?
Mr. Richardson. I don't remember.
Mr. Tavenner. Then I will introduce the document in order to
show that your date of graduation was January 1948, and ask that
the document be marked "Richardson Exhibit No. 2" for identifica-
tion purposes in the files of the committee.
Mr. Moulder. The document will be so marked as requested by
counsel.
(The document referred to was marked "Richardson Exhibit No.
2," and filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. ScHERER. Are you finished with that particular document?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. May I look at it, please?
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Richardson, it is noted that your application
for emploA'ment, under date of October 12, 1953, shows that you
answered the inquiry as to yom* education as follows: "High school."
Why didn't you advise your employer in yom* application that you
were a college graduate and that you had had an outstanding record
of scholastic achievement?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Where did you go to high school?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I went to high school at Webster Groves High
School.
Mr. Scherer. Where is Webster Groves?
Mr. Wolff. Your Honor, that is a suburb of St. Louis.
Mr. Scherer. Is that near Kii'kwood, Mo.?
4906 COI'.lMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Wolff. Yes, sir; that is near Kirkwood.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Richardson, are you familiar with the testi-
mony of Herbert A. Philbrick before the Committee on Un-American
Activities?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. Same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I fail to see how it could possibly incriminate you
to state whether or not you are familiar mth the testimony of a
witness before this committee. Certainly you are not making that
claim in good faith when you refuse to answer that question. I
believe you must have misunderstood the question.
My question was whether or not you are familiar with the testimony
Mr. Philbrick gave before this committee in Washington.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. vScHERER. Herbert Philbrick.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Herbert A. Philbrick, yes, sir.
Mr. Richardson. I dechne to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Herbert A. Philbrick testified that he remem-
bered specifically the Communist Party building conference where the
comrades were instructed to take positions as colonizers. That is, to
take upon themselves the duty of being colonizers in key industries.
This committee developed a great deal of testimony- in the State of
Michigan regarding the use of colonizers, the taking of students out
of certain colleges in the city of New York, even those who had re-
ceived electrical engineering degrees, and placing them in industry in
a capacit}^ tliat any high school student could have held down, or even
a person without any education at all.
And, in order to get those people into industry, those people con-
cealed the fact that the}' had had college training. In some instances
those individuals fm-nished false information regarding previous em-
ployment.
An abundance of evidence was obtained to show that those individ-
uals engaging in that plan of colonization did so by acquiring leader-
ship in the field of labor in those industries in order that the Com-
munist Party could infiltrate labor organizations and become leaders.
Now, altliougli you iiad an A. B. degree from college, it is noticed
that you concealed that information when you applied for this position.
Did you do so to carry out any plan of the Communist Party to
colonize industry in St. Louis?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. The same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. You refuse to answer?
Mr. Richardson. On the gi-ounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. After you took your employment, v\-hich must have
occurred sometime after October 12, 1953, did you obtain any position
in yoiu- local labor union?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. The same answer.
Mr. Moulder. You decline to answer, claiming yom- privilege
under the fifth amendment of the Constitution. Is that correct?
Mr. Richardson. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. Then hereafter you may so respond to tlie question
by saying "Same answer", and then it wiU be understood that you
are claiming the privilege.
CORflVIUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4907
Mr. Wolff. Mr. Moulder, I believe it was announced by either
Mr. Tavenner or yourself that, for the purpose of saving time, if he
wanted to avail himself of the fifth amendment, that he should say
"The same answer." He was here yesterday at the hearings.
Mr. ScHERER. May I interrupt?
Mr. Moulder. Yes, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. I don't thinly you should say "The same answer"
because it isn't an answer. It is a refusal to answer.
Mr. Moulder. You may state that you decline to answer
Mr. Scherer. You decline to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. After October 12, 1953, were you a member of an
organized group of the Communist Party consisting of members of
one or more local labor unions?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of a labor union after October
12, 1953?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Haven't you been a shop steward in Local 688 of
the teamsters union?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to ansv/er for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Didn't you unsuccessfully run for the position
of chief steward in 1955?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, you didn't even disclose to your union
that you had these educational qualifications, did you?
Mr. Richardson. Repeat the question, please.
Mr. Scherer. I say you didn't even disclose to your union that
you had these educational qualifications, did you?
(The vvdtness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the sam.e reason.
Mr. Tavenner. What union has bargaining rights at^the Graham
Paper Co?
(The Vv'itness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the sam.c reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't that a very unfair position to take toward
that union, to state that the mere fact that it has bargaining rights
might tend, to incriminate 3^ou if you would answer it?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Scherer. I have no way of knowing, Mr. Tavenner, but I
doubt whether even the union knows the subterfuge practiced by this
individual. It is again an attempt by the Communists to infiltrate
certain unions without disclosing the background of the members who
are attempting to infiltrate.
As you point out, it is most unfair to this union.
Mr. Tavenner. It may be, however, that since his effort to run
for an office proved unsuccessful, they did catch on.
Mr. Scherer. That is the reason I say that.
Mr. Moulder. If you were a member of the Communist Party and
a member of a labor union, would jou advise and inform yom' fellow
members of that union that you were a member of the Communist
Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
4908 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of an organization known as
the Young Progressives of America?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. At one period of time the youth organization of
the Communist Party was disbanded and its membership was directed
to get into the Labor Youth League and the Young Progressives of
America. Did you observe that that was the procedure here in
St. Louis.
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Ai-e you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Moulder. When you were a candidate for chief steward, did
the members of your union know you were a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Moulder. Any more questions?
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. Have you any questions, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. Since your graduation have you contmued to preach?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you du-ect the witness to answer Congress-
man Frazier 's question. He indicated voluntarily in the beginning of
his testimony that he did preach at two churches while he was still a
student.
Mr. Moulder. You are so directed.
And, in addition to that, may I say I couldn't possibly understand
how anyone could be guilty or could possibly incriminate himself by
stating whether or not they were preaching in a church.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. He voluntarily made the statement in response to
one of the questions, that while he was in his senior year he preached
at two churches.
Mr. Moulder. You are so directed.
Mr. Scherer. He is shown here on his record to be correct in that
statement.
Mr. Moulder. You are directed to answer.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Frazier. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer, do you liave any questions?
Mr. Scherer. Do you have any other occupation other than
that with the Graham Paper Co.?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I have worked at the Graham Paper Co. for
about the last 3 years.
Mr. Scherer. Now during those 3 years, did you have any other
occupation?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4909
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
ainenilnient.
Mr. ScHERER. You said in response to a question by Mr. Taven-
]ier — and it was purely voluntary on youi" part — that you preached
at two churches while you were at Culver-Stockton College. Now
what were those two churches?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
>Ir. Richardson. I previously identified the churches at which I
preached.
Mr. ScHERER. I am sorry, but if you did I do not recall. Will you
identify them again.
Mr. Richardson. I thought I did.
One at Ursa, 111., and one in Knox City, ^^lo.
Ml'. ScHERER. And are those the only churches at which you have
preached?
(The witness confers wdth his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Certainly he hasn't the right to invoke the fifth
amendment now when I ask him if those were the only two churches at
which he preached, because he has opened the door if he did have any
right to mvoke the fifth amendment, which I do not think he had.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer. And you are
advised, as we have advised other witnesses, that this direction is not
given in the spirit of a threat but for the purpose of advising you that
the committee doesn't accept j'our answer or your response as having
been made in good faith in claiming the protection of the fifth amend-
ment, and also to warn you of the possible dangers of your being con-
fronted with and being guilty of contempt.
(The witness confers with Ids counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. To the best of my knowledge, those are the only
places.
No, I did not.
Mr. Scherer. You graduated in 1948 from Culver-Stockton College
and made your application for employment with the Graham Paper
Co. on October 12, 1953. It was that application which Mr. Tavenner
referred in which you stated that the only education you had was high
school.
Where did you work between the time that you graduated from
Culver-Stockton College and the time 5'ou started to work for Graham
Paper Co. in 1953?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. In your application to the Graham Paper Co. you
say you were self-employed during that period. Were you self-
employed?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
]Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
- Mr. Scherer. You are not going to tell us what you did from the
time you graduated from Culver-Stockton College until you started to
work for the Graham Paper Co. in October of 1953?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Scherer. Were you employed during that time by the Com-
munist Party?
4910 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST, LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. KicHARDSON. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you ever receive any compensation from the
Communist Party?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you do any preaching from the time you gradu-
ated from Culver-Stockton until you started to work for the Graham
Paper Co?
(The witness confers with his counseL)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you ever work in packinghouses as a punch and
drill operator?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. ScHERER. You lifted your eyebrows as indicating that I might
be wrong in asking you such a question. Did you make such a state-
ment in your application at Graham Paper Co., namely, that you had
worked at packinghouses as a punch and drill operator?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you tell the truth when you made your applica-
tion to the Graham Paper Co.?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. ScHERER. You got your job on the basis of the statements you
made in your application to the Graham Paper Co., did you not?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you believe if you had given truthful answers in
your application for employment to the Graham Paper Co., that the
Graham Paper Co. would have employed you in the capacity which
it did?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Scherer. Do you believe that the Graham Paper Co. v.ould
have employed j^ou in the capacity in which you were employed and
are employed if you had indicated to them the educational qualifica-
tions that you have from Stockton College?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Scherer. And do you think tliey would have employed you if
you had told them trutlifully wJiat you had done from the day you
graduated from college and until the date you made your application?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Scherer. Did you ever disclose to the members of your union
the fact that you were a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Scherer. Did you ever disclose to your union the fact that
you had misrepresented your background to your employer when seek-
ing emplojmient in the Graham Paper Co.?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for tlie same reason.
Mr. Scherer. Did the members of your union know of ^-our fine
educational background?
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer for t^e same reason.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. AiouLDER. May I ask this question:
Mr. Richardson, when did you say you began working at the
Graham Paper Co.?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4911
(The witness confers with }iis counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I beHeve tJie record shows that I said, to the best
of my recollection, it was in the neighborhood of the last 3 years.
Mr. Moulder. Now, according to the document presented by
counsel as your application for emplojTnent, it was on October 12,
1953, when Edwin L. Richardson made the applif iition for employ-
ment tliere.
Mr. Wolff. What was that date, Mr. Moulder? I didn't quite
get that.
Air. Moulder. According to the document presented by counsel
as the application for warehouse employment with the Graham Paper
Co., which is purported to be signed by Edwin L. Richardson, was it
on October 12, 1953, when the application was made.
Now what caused you to seek employment with the Graham
Paper Co.?
You stated that you have been working there during the past 3
years.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Moulder. Who suggested that you seek employment with the
Graham Paper Co.?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Moulder. Did you, of your own personal knowledge, know
that there was an opportunity for employment with the Graham
Paper Co. before you made application for employment?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Moulder. Were you requested or directed by the Communist
Party to seek employment at the Graham Paper Co. when you made
such application for employment?
Mr. Richardson. 1 refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Moulder. An}^ fm-ther questions, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sii\
Mr. Frazier. One more.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Frazier.
Mr. Frazier. Mr. Richardson, during the period from 1948 to
1953, did you travel abroad dming that time?
Mr. Wolff. What w^as that c[uestion?
Mr. Frazier. I asked if Mr. Richardson traveled abroad during
the period from 1948 to 1953, that is if he left the United States
during that period.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Frazier. Did you go to Russia diu"ing that time?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Richardson. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Moulder. Very wxll, you are excused as a witness, Mr.
Richardson.
4912 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
And may I ask, Mr. Wolff, if you were assigned by the bar associa-
tion to represent this nian.
Mr. Wolff. Yes, su'.
Mr. Moulder. We wish to compHment you on your conduct in
your appearance before the committee in representing your client.
We are pleased to have you here in that capacity.
Thank you very much, Mr. Wolff.
Call the next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Anne (Ann) Yasgur.
Mr. RouDEBUSH. Kling.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Anne (Ann) Kling.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Kling. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ANNE (ANN) YASGUR KLING, ACCOMPANIED BY
HER COUNSEL, G. S. ROUDEBUSH
Mr. RouDEBUSH. My name is G. S. Roudebush. I am a member
of this bar, and represent Mrs. Kling.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please?
Mrs. Kling. Anne (Ann) Ruth Kling.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your maiden name?
Mrs. Kling. Yasgur, Y-a-s-g-u-r.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell your last name Kling?
Mrs. Kling. K-1-i-n-g.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside?
Mrs. Kling. 1445 Partridge Avenue, University City, postal
zone 14, Mo.
Mr. Tavenner. Ai-e you a native of St. Louis?
Mrs. Kling. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were 3^ou born?
Mrs. Kling. In Bradford, Pa.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you move to St. Louis?
Mrs. Kling. In the summer of 1944.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been married?
Mrs. Kling. We were married January 1, 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your employment between 1944 in
St. Louis and 1948, if any?
Mrs. Kling. I had various stenographic jobs, but I worked for the
Communist Party in the Communist Party office for a period of time.
And I sold subscriptions to New Alasses magazine.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was the Communist Party headquarters
located at the time you were emploj^ed in the office?
Mrs. Kling. I think it was on North 7th Street here in downtown
St. Louis.
Mr. Tavenner. That employment began when?
Mrs. Kling. Well, I believe — ^I am not sure — sometime in the
winter of 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did the employment continue?
Mrs. Kling. I started about the whiter of 1945 and, well, I left
the party payroll at various times to take ordinary stenographic jobs,
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4913
and it was intermittent between the winter of 1945, probabh', to the
winter of 1946.
Mr. Tavexner. Who was tlie Communist Party organizer in
charge of the office during that period of time?
Mrs. Klixg. Mr. Tavenner, I will tell you anything that you want
to know about myself and my activities, anything you want to know.
I have nothing to conceal. I engaged in no criminal or no illegal
activity.
But I am not a tattletale, and I don't want to snitch on anybody.
Mr. Tavex'xer. Mr. Chairman, may I ask for a direction that the
witness answer the question?
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer. And, as other
witnesses have been advised, we are not directing you to answer the
question in the spirit of a threat but for the reason that the committee
is not satisfied and does not accept your response to the question, and
for the further reason advising you of the possibility of the dangers
of contempt proceedings.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Klixg. Mr. Tavenner, my la\y\'er advises me that the question
of exposure of other individuals simply for the case of exposure is not
a settled question in law, and until it is a settled fiuestion m^^ con-
science would prevent me from tattling on other people.
Mr. vScHERER. I think we should say that the full bench of the
circuit court of appeals recently reversed a ruling of the three members
of that court.
Mr. RouDEBUSH. May I be heard on that, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. I am just saying — ■ — •
Mr. RouDEBUSH. I should sa}^ that I spoke yesterday on the
telephone to comisel for Watkins in that case, and he told me that he
was applying for certiorari to the United States Supreme Court.
Mr. Moulder. May I say, of course, that you are going imder the
presumption that we are merely seeking to expose somebody, which
is not true. It is a wrong and false presumption.
Proceed, \h:. Tavenner.
Air. Scherer. Don't you think we should further say now that we are
now considering legislation and that testimony that this witness
might give, if she would, would be helpful in that respect?
Mr. Moulder. Yes, we would take that position. Such informa-
tion as you may be m a position to give us might aid this committee
in its deliberations and consideration of legislation.
Now do you still wish to refuse to answer for the reasons which
you have given?
Mrs. Klixg. Yes. Telling on other people is an abhorrent thing
to me.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavexxer. Were 3''ou acquainted with Ralph Shaw?
Mrs. Klixg. That is the same question essentially. You are
asking me to identify a person, and I just can't identify other people.
I wish you would ask me what I did, how I behaved.
Mr. Scherer. You understand, madam, that that is not your
responsibility as to whether 3^ou are going to tell what you know about
other individuals. |P
Om- society and our courts could not function if any witness that
came into a court or into a congressional hearing took it upon himself
to sa}' that he is]|not*going2to tell what he knows about other people.
4914 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
It is distasteful all of the time, even in the courtroom, for a person
to come in and say that he saw his neighbor beat his wife. He may
not want to say that, but merely because he likes that neighbor he
can't refuse to tell the com't, nor could he refuse to tell a congressional
committee what he knows merely because it is distasteful to him.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. ScHERER. Our whole system of jurisprudence would fall if
witnesses could take it upon themselves to saj^ "I don't want to tell
what I know about people merely because I don't like to do it, that it
is distasteful."
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Did Ralph Shaw serve in the Armed Forces of the
United States, as far as you know?
Mrs. Kling. I decline to answer the questions in relation to other
individuals. I am relying somewhat on counsel's advice that this
question of holding people up to public scorn is an open question.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you substitute in any way and
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute.
I think we have got to get this record straight, particularly insofar
as this witness is concerned.
If witnesses could come in and say they just don't want to tell
what they know about other people because it might have an un-
favorable effect upon them — I think I must ask that you direct the
witness to answer the question,
Mr. Moulder. The witness is so directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Kling. My conscience will not permit me to answer.
Mr. Scherer. You are refusing to answer solely because your
conscience will not permit you to answer?
Mrs. Kling. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Scherer. We should state for the record certainly this com-
mittee is not asking these questions for the purpose of exposing any
individual. The committee is asking these questions so that it will
be better enabled to recommend to the Congress such legislation as it
thinks necessary to deal with the Communist conspiracy which still
exists in this country.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee has received sworn testimony that
Ralph Shaw was an organizer of the Communist Party in St. Louis,
but that there was a period of time when he was absent while serving
m the Armed Forces of the United States.
Did you carry on the function of an organizer of the Communist
Party at any time while Ralph Shaw was not here?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. I worked in the Communist Party office sometime
during the winter of 1945, and I believe it contmued to the winter of
1946 or thereabouts. I left, I quit the Communist Party in the sum-
mer of 1947. I have never attended any more Communist Party
meetings. That was 9 years ago.
I understand that I was expelled for desertion.
That is the story.
Mr. Scherer. Then you would have no way of knowing, madam,
whether this man Shaw or any of the other individuals about whom
Mr. Tavenner wants to inquire are still members of the Communist
Party and are still active. You would have no way of knowing?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4915
Mrs. Kling. That is true. That is absohitely true.
Mr. ScHERER. And it is possible that they might be?
Mrs. Kling. It is possible; yes.
Mr. ScHERER. Was Shaw a member of the Communist Party at
the time you were there?
Mrs. Kling. I will answer any questions about myself.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct now the witness to answer the
question as to whether Shaw was a member of the Communist Party
because obviously he may still be a member of the Communist Party
today and may still be engaged in subversive activities against this
country.
And it may be that we will want to call Shaw or other people
connected with Shaw to determine what the Communist consphacy
is doing at this present moment in this area. And, as the result, we
may want to recommend legislation to the Congress of the United
States to deal with the continued activities of the Comm.unist con-
spiracy.
Mr. Moulder. As requested by Mr. Scherer, the witness is informed
that the committee does not accept yom- response to the question,
and you are directed to answer.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. What was the question? Excuse me.
Mr. Moulder. He asked you if
Mr. Scherer. If Shaw was a member of the Communist Party at
the time she was.
Mrs. Kling. Mr. Scherer, my conscience will not permit me to
name other individuals whom I may or may not have known during
the 3 years — 9 years ago — that I ^^as in the Communist Party.
Mr. Scherer. Yet you understand that people who were in the
Communist Party at the time you were there may still be in the
Communist Party today?
Mrs. Kling. I have no way of knowing, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. Will you tell us the name — I know you don't have
any way of knowing — will you tell us then the names of such indi-
viduals who were members of the Communist Party when you were
there who we may not even know about?
Mrs. Kling. I cannot sit here and be a tattletale, Mr. Scherer. I
just can't do that kind of thing.
Mr. Scherer. Then, as I understand it, you are refusing to answer
my questions solely because you feel that 3"our conscience will not per-
mit you to tell us about individuals who were members of the Com-
mmiist Party when you were a mem.ber of the Communist Party who
may be members of the party today.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. Yes, Mr. Scherer, for tliat reason and for the further
reason tliat it is still an open question as to whether the law compels
information about individuals which may not serve a legislative pur-
pose.
Mr. Scherer. I ask tliat you direct the witness to answer my
question.
Mr. Moulder. Your response is not accepted by the committee,
and you are directed to answer as requested by Mr. Scherer.
Mrs. Kling. I cannot answer.
Mr. Moulder. All right. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
81594— 56— pt. 3 3
4916 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. You did not answer the question that I asked you.
My question was whether or not during the absence of Mr. Shaw you
carried on the functions of an organizer of tlie Communist Party in
St. Louis.
Mrs. Kling. Let's see. What exactly did I do?
I don't know that you would call it an organizer. I wrote leaflets.
I ran them off on a mimeograph. I may have distributed them on the
street corners. I participated actively. I don't believe I ever had the
appellation "organizer."
Mr. Tavenner. My question was whether you served in that capac-
ity during the absence of Mr. Shaw. It would be very easy for you to
answer that question "yes" or "no" according to whatev^er the facts are.
Mrs. Kling. Well, I would say
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. I was not an organizer.
IMr. Tavenner. I asked you if you carried on the duties of an
organizer of the Communist Party during the absence of Mr. Shaw.
Mrs. Kling. The duties as an organizer, yes, I suppose that would
be so, never being termed an organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. Though you did not have the title of an organizer
you carried on the work of \h-. Shaw when Mr. Shav/ was in the Ai'ni}^;
didn't you?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
j\Irs. Kling. I was carrying on work that might be called that of
an organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ralph Shaw was vour brother-in-law; wasn't
he?
Mrs. Kling. I will not bring in names, according to my conscience.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. I ask you direct the witness
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me, Mr. Scherer.
(Mr. Tavenner confers with the committee.)
Mr. Moulder. The request is made that you be directed to answer,
and you are so directed.
Mrs. Kling. Excuse me. The question again, please?
Mr. Tavenner. Will you read the witness the question?
(Wniiereupon, the record was read by the reporter, as follows:)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ralph Shaw was j-our brother-in-law; wasn't he?
Mrs. Kling. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you been a member of the Communist Party
before you accepted employment in the Commmiist Party head-
quarters?
Mrs. Kling. Yes.
IVIr. Tavenner. When and where did vou join the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Kling. In St. Louis.
Air. Tavenner. In vSt. Louis?
Mrs. Kling. In the summer of 1944.
Mr. Tavenner. WiU you tell the committee, please, whether or
not you participated as an instructor in the basic training institute of
the Communist Party.
Mrs. Kling. Will you explain what 3^ou mean by basic training
institute?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4917
Mr. Tavenner. Well, let me ask you this:
Did the Communist Party organize a school in 1946?
Mrs. Kling. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you teach in a school, a Communist Party
school?
Mrs. Kling. I may have taught some classes. I don't believe I
ever tauglit in anything that was called a school.
Mr. Tavenner. What did you call it?
Mrs. Kling, They were informal classes, organized.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us about them.
Mrs. Kling. Informal classes organized in which current events
were studied.
My memory really is bad. That is 10 years ago. It is hard to teU
what was done.
Mr. Tavenner. History of the Soviet Union. Was that one of
the things that you studied?
Mrs. Kling. It could be, but I honestly don't recall.
Mr. Tavenner. You don't recall.
Mr. Moulder. What subject did you teach?
Mrs. Kling. I think it was economics, but I am not positive. It
may have been on surplus value, but I couldn't swear to it.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere did you get yom- training for the purpose of
teaching that subject?
Mrs. Kling. I think mainly I read books on my own.
Mr. Tavenner. After you became a member of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Kling. No. I think I started when I was a senior in college.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
any time before coming to St. Louis?
Mrs. Kling. No. I was a member of the Young Communist
League in college, and, as a member of the Young Communist League,
I wasn't a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Moulder. At what college was that?
Mrs. Kling. Missouri University.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you enter Missouri University?
Mrs. Kling. The fall of 1940.
Mr. Tavenner. Missouri University is at Columbia. I under-
stood you first came to Missouri in 1944.
Mrs. Kling. I came to St. Louis in 1944.
Mr. Tavenner. You came to vSt. Louis in 1944, When did you
come first to the State of Missouri?
Mrs. Kling. The fall of 1940.
Mr. Tavenner. That was to attend Missouri L^niversity?
Mrs. Kling. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you been a member of the Young Communist
League before coming to IVIissouri?
Airs. Kling. No.
IVIr. Tavenner. Will you give us at this time, please, what your
formal educational training has been.
Mrs. Kling. I have an A. B. degree from the University of Missouri
granted in June of 1944.
Mr. Tavenner. Was this a group of the Young Communist League
composed of students at Missouri University?
Mrs. Kling. Yes.
4918 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Was it organized by a functionary of the Com-
munist Party?
Mrs. Kling. Well, it was already organized when I got there.
So I couldn't say.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it continuing in full bloom when you left
there?
Mrs. Kling. I don't know how full-bloomy it was. I believe it
was still going when I left.
Mr. Tavenner. You know whether it was going, don't you?
It is not a matter of just believing. You know?
Mrs. Kling. Well, I wasn't there. I can't tell you for sure.
Mr. Tavenner. I said when you left.
Mrs. Kling. When I left. Oh, yes, all right. When I left I guess
it was still going.
Mr. Scherer. Were there any professors active in the Young
Communist League as advisers or otherwise?
Mrs. Kling. No; not that I know of.
Mr. Tavenner. Did functionaries of the Communist Party appear
in your Young Communist League meetings from time to time?
Mrs. Kling. Well, I will have to think because that was 1943^4,
That is 12 and 13 years ago and I really will have to think.
Whether anybody — well, it could be but I couldn't say for sm-e.
Mr. Tavenner. Did any functionary of the Communist Party
who appeared before yom- group ever confer with you after leaving
college about your becoming a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Kling. You know I think that when I left college I was so
dedicated that I just went up to the Communist Party office and
joined.
Mr. Tavenner. In Columbia or in St. Louis?
Mrs. Kling. In St. Louis.
Mr. Tavenner. In St. Louis?
Mrs. Kling. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How long a period of time before 1944 had 3'ou
considered yourself a dedicated Communist?
Mrs. Kling. Well, maybe I used the word dedicated ill-ad visedly,
but I was probably — let's see.
I was a member of the Young Communist League toward the end
of 1943 and through 1944, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us, please, who employed you first
in the Communist Party headquarters in St. Louis.
Mrs. Kling. Wefi, that would involve more names, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, it would involve a name.
Mrs. Kling. And I think that I will just wait and see what the
Supreme Court has to say on this.
Mr. Tavenner. May I ask a direction of the witness to answer.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Kling. My conscience will not permit me to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. How many persons were employed in the head-
quarters besides you?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. I think the Communist Party payrofi at that time
consisted of 2 persons, myself and one other.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was that other person?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4919
Mrs. Kling. I cannot answer.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is du^ected to answer.
Mrs. Kling. I cannot answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that other person the organizer or was it a
fellow employee, another person employed by the organizer?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. Well, when the men went off to the Army the women
of the Communist Party were supposed to take over and run things.
But nobody got titles as far as I can remember.
Mr. Tavenner. But when the leadership of the Communist Party
Avent in the Army their wives took over?
Mrs. Kling. I don't know that they were necessarily wives.
Mr. Tavenner. Or the men took over?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. RouDEBUSH. You said "or the men took over."
Mr. Tavenner. No. The women took over.
Mrs. Kling. Yes, I thmk that when the men went off to war
women entered the factories to become riveters, et cetera. That is
probably what happened.
Mr. Tavenner. You were one of those who wanted to keep the
Cornmunist Party going until the men got back?
Mrs. Kling. Yes, I guess you would say that.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did you maintain a list of the membership
of the Communist Party at the time that you acted in that capacity?
Mrs. Kling. There were lists of members. And I would address
envelopes and ask members to attend meetings. Yes, lists were
available to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you the dues secretary?
Mrs. Kling. No, I wasn't the dues secretary.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was?
Mrs. Kling. I cannot answer that question, Mr, Tavenner.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. Scherer. May I interpose one question.
You know who the dues secretary was, though, do you not?
Mrs. Kling. Mr. Scherer, I don't really remember. I honestly
don't remember.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any list of the membership?
Mrs. Kling. Now?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mrs. Kling. Oh, no. I left the party 9 years ago. And then I was
expelled for desertion. That is my understanding.
Mr. Tavenner. How did the Communist Party raise the money
with which to carry on its operations during the period of time you
were serving in the capacity you have described?
Mrs. Kling. I think it was mainly contributions from members.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Tavenner, without any opposition on your part
or the members or Mr. Williams, we will recess, and the committee
will stand in recess until 2 p. m.
(Whereupon, at 12:20 p. m., the committee was recessed until
2 p. m., this same day, there being present at the time of taking the
recess Representatives Moulder, Frazier, and Scherer.)
4920 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
AFTERNOON SESSION, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 6, 1956
(The subcommittee was reconvened at the exph'ation of the recess,
at 2:15 p. m., there being present at the time of reconvening Repre-
sentatives Morgan M. Moulder, James B. Frazier, Jr., and Gordon
H. Scherer.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Call your next witness.
Mr. RouDEBUSH. She has been sworn.
TESTIMONY OF ANNE (ANN) YASGUR KLING, ACCOMPANIED BY
HER COUNSEL, G. S. ROUDEBUSH— Resumed
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Kling, I believe you said in your testimony
this morning that you became a member of the Communist Party in
1944, very soon after your arrival in St. Louis.
Mrs. Kling. Yes; I believe that is true.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. What was your purpose in coming to St. Louis?
Mrs. Kling. Well, I was a graduate from school, and I decided,
rather than going back to the small town from which I came, I wanted
to live in a large city.
Mr. Tavenner. And where was the small town from which you
came?
Mrs. Kling. In northwest Pennsylvania — Bradford.
Mr. Tavenner. Bradford. That is just outfide of Pittsburgh;
isn't it?
Mrs. Kling. No. It is about one-hundred-some-odd miles north.
It is closer to Erie.
Mr. Tavenner. ^Vliv did vou select St. Louis?
Mrs. Kling. Well, I had become familiar with St. Louis, being at
Columbia, Mo., and it seemed like a nice city to me.
Mr. Tavenner. You had visited here frequently during the period
of time that you were in attendance at college at Columbia?
Mrs. Kling. Not frequently, but on weekends or for a Sunday.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any Communist Party contacts
here in St. Louis during the period of those visits?
Mrs. Kling. I think they were Young Commimist League contacts
rather than party, although I really couldn't tell you whether those I
saw were members of the Young (Communist League or the Commu-
nist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend meetings of the Young Communist
League here in St. Louis?
Mrs. Kling. I think that I came to one Young Communist League
convention in the spring of 1944, but I can't swear to the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Did those connections with the membership of the
Young Communist League influence you in coming to St. Louis to
make this your place of residence?
Mrs. Kling. Yes. The fact that I had become acquainted with a
few people might have influenced me, although actually I wanted to
live in a large city, and I didn't want to live in a small town.
Mr. Tavenner. How soon after you became a member of the
Communist Party in 1944 was it you became employed in the
headquarters, Communist Party headquarters in this city?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4921
Mrs. Kling. I can't give you the exact time, but I believe it may
have been around February or March of 1945. But my memory on
that is faulty. I was employed but I can't give you the exact date.
Mr. Tavenner. Specifically what office was it in which you were
employed? Was it on a district level or city level?
Mrs. Kling. I think it was on the district level. Yes, I think it
Avas the district.
Mr. Tavenner. The district level. And the district at tluit time
consisted of the States of Missouri and Arkansas, did it not?
Mrs. Kling. You Imow I have forgotten. You may be right.
You may be right.
Mr. Tavenner. There were at that time organized groups of the
Communist Party not only in St. Louis but in what is referred to as
outstate Missouri. Isn't that true?
Mi-s. Kling. Yes, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Kansas Cit}^ and other places.
Did you say "yes"?
Mrs. Kling. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remam in the position that you
spoke of in the district headquarters?
Mrs. Kling. Let's see
Mr. Tavenner. Did you sa.j until 1947? I understood you to so
state.
Mrs. Kling. No, it wasn't — I don't believe — 1 think it was toward
the end of 1946 that I was no longer employed, but I am not absolutely
sure.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. In your earlier testimony you stated 1947, I
understood.
Mrs. Kling. My lawyer advises me that you may be confusing
the date I left the party with the date I loft working directl}' for the
Communist Party?
Air. Tavenner. Very well. If you will give us the facts, whatever
they are.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any document or memorandum that
you could use to refresh your recollection?
Mrs. Kling. No, I am sorry I don't. I am trying very hard to
remember for you.
Mr. RouDEBUSH. This paper she is looking at, Mr. Tavenner, is
notes that I made of what she told me.
Mr. Tavenner. That is quite all right.
Mrs. Kling. As far as I can remem.ber, I sold subscriptions to
New Masses magazine from around the fall of 1945 until January of
1946.
No, that wouldn't be right.
And I worked at the Communist Party office from around the
winter of 1945 — -yes, this is correct — until the winter of around 1946.
I believe this is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. The winter of 1946?
Mrs. Kling. I honestly can't swear to this. I realize I am under
oath, and I don't want to make a mistake.
Mr. Tavenner. All I want 3^ou to do is to be as nearly correct as
3^ou can.
4922 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO,, AREA
I believe you said you left tlie Communist Party in 1947.
Mrs. Kling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat time in 1947?
Mrs. Kling. It was somewiiere in the summer, June or July, pos-
sibly August, of 1947 I stopped attending meetings.
Air. Tavenner. Did you attend any Communist Party meetings
after June or July, 1947?
Mrs. Kling. I don't believe so, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You are not certain?
Mrs. Kling. Let's see.
I am fairly certain, but that is 9 years ago. And while I am under
oath I am not going to say 9 years ago
Mr. Tavenner. You could be mistaken about that?
Mrs. Kling. Possibly, possibly.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee whether or not it was
the practice in the Communist Party to require the membership to
subscribe for the Daily Worker?
Mrs. Kling. Yes; I think members were — they wanted the mem-
bers to read the paper; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Why?
Mrs. Kling. I suppose to inform them on their stand on current
events.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it not correct that the Daily Worker carried
the Communist Party line, the decisions of the Communist Party,
which the membership should follow?
Mrs. Kling. Yes; that is true.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you familiar with the activity of Grace
Granich in procuring directives from the Soviet Union and having
them carried as news articles in the Daily Worker for the purpose of
informing the membership of the Communist Party as to the Com-
munist decisions?
Mrs. Kling. I have never heard of —
Is it a woman?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mrs. Kling. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Didn't you continue to subscribe to the Daily
Worker to a much later date than 1947?
Mrs. Kling. I may have. I don't think I did, but I may have.
I know I wasn't subscribing to it in 1948; I am pretty sure I wasn't.
But I can't honestly, you know, say.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive it regularly in 1948?
Mrs. Kling. I don't really remember. I don't think so. But I
don't honestly remember.
I may have wanted to let the subscription run out and get the paper
for nothing.
Mr. Tavenner. Why were you interested in receiving the Daily
Worker after you had withdrawn from the Communist Party?
Mrs. Kling. Well, I really —
You apparently have information that I did, and I guess if you have
it then it is correct. But I can't remember that I was interested. I
probably was letting a subscription take its normal course and didn't
stop it.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Kling, I have read into evidence a document
entitled "Proposed Plan for Missouri State Building Conference,
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4923
March 2 and 3, 1946," which set forth the Communist Party plan for
Missouri. This was at a period when you were in the district office
of the Communist Party in St. Louis.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Tavenner, may I interrupt to announce we are
pleased and honored to have with us Congressman Charles A. Halleck,
of Indiana, floor leader of the House of Representatives of the United
States.
Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
I would like to read to you this part of the document. The heading
of this part of the document is:
The minimum requirements for fulfilling concentration tasks:
It is proposed that the minimum number of recruits shall come from the follow-
ing industries:
AFL — 25, electrical— 25, shoe — 25 (including AFL shoe workers).
Packing — 25, including KC —
which may mean Kansas City.
Auto — 15, including KC.
Railroad — 15, including KC. Outstate — 25.
Youth and vets — 25.
Negro and professionals — 100 as a general minimum figure.
It is proposed that new branches and clubs shall be organized in the following
places —
I will refer to that a little later.
Do you recall at this time the success attained by the Communist
Party in meeting the minimum requirements for fulfilling the con-
centration tasks in 1946?
Mrs. Kling. The Communist Party was always having party-
building conferences. They were always putting up goals to be met.
And I honestly don't remember whether those aims were achieved or
not. I rather think they weren't, but I couldn't swear to it.
Mr. Tavenner. Continuing to read the document:
It is proposed that new branches and clubs shall be organized in the following
places:
Five additional shop branches, at least one of these in KC.
County clubs in Overland, Kinloch, and Kirkwood.
Do you recall whether clubs were organized in Overland, Kmloch,
and Kirkwood?
Mrs. Kling. No, I really don't know.
Now, I went to Kansas City for several months in 1946 — -I don't
know whether you have that information or not — in an attempt
to recruit members and build up the Kansas City party. Success was
not too great, and I returned to St. Louis, I think, in the fall or the
early winter months of 1947.
Mr. Tavenner. In Kansas City did you work among the railroad
group referred to in this document, in which it was said that there
should be 15 recruited in railroad, including Kansas City.
Mrs. Kling. I don't believe I ever worked directl37^ with any rail-
road group. I don't think there were any 15 members either.
Mr. Tavenner. How many were there?
Mrs. Kling. Well, let me sec. 10 years ago. There may have
been 2 or 3.
Mr. Tavenner. We have heard testimony here that Otto
Wangerin
4924 CO]VIMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mrs. Klixg. What is the name?
Mr. Tavenner. Otto Wangerin, a Communist Party fmictionary
on a national level and one of the members of the railroad unit of the
Communist Party — as it was described by the witness but which we
thinlv meant that he was one of the railroad commission of the Com-
munist Party on a national level — came here to St. Louis and met with
the Communist Party here for the pm'pose of concentrating work
among railroad emplo3^ees. The testimony is that he stated to the
St. Louis group of Communists that the railroads were of vital im-
portance to the Communist Party, that the very life of a democracy
such as ours depends upon transportation, and no revolution could
be complete unless the Communist Party controlled the railroads.
Do you recall the appearance of Mr. Otto Wangerin?
Mrs. Kling. I really don't. I don't recall him at all. The name
isn't faimilar to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Now you state that here in St. Louis there were
2 or 3 members of the railroad group.
Mrs. Kling. No. You misunderstood me. I don't know wha
they had at St. Louis in the railroad group. I was talking abou
Kansas City.
Mr. Tavenner. Kansas City. There were 2 or 3 in Kansas City?
Mrs. Kling. As far as I know and can remember now.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether Harold Hall was a member
of the railroad group here in St. Louis?
Airs. Kling. Well, there we come to names again, and I honestly
didn't know anything about the railroad group at St. Louis.
Mr. Scherer. Did you know Harold Hall?
Mrs. Kling. I cannot answer that, sir.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Moulder. As requested by Mr. Scherer, the witness is directed
to answer.
Mr. Scherer. You are refusing to answer it on the basis that your
conscience will not permit you to answer?
Mrs. Kling. But not only that; but also that there may be an open
legal question as to whether mere naming of names serves the purpose
that the committee desires.
Mr. Scherer. We settled that this morning.
Mr. Tavenner. I assure you that this is no question of merely
naming of names. There is information indicating that Mr. Hall is an
important member of the Communist Part}^ in St. Louis today.
Your testimony on his activities and just what his activities were in
the Communist Party may be of vital importance to us if you will give
it to us.
Mr. Scherer. For the purpose of determining legislation which the
committee now has and presently has under consideration.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mrs. Kling. Well, franldy I didn't have much to do with the
industrial end of the party. I was more, well, how to put it
I don't believe I ever planned any of this, whatever it is that you are
driving at. My own interests in the ideology were on an intellectual
level, and I can't say that I ever concentrated in this area that you
are talking about at all. I don't laiow the workings of it.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4925
Air. Tavenner. The intellectuals iii the Communist Party were
used by the Communist Party to aid m recruiting in industry, in
railroads and in other vital areas in which the Communist Party was
mterested. Isn't that true? Wasn't that one of the principal functions
of the mtellectuals in the Communist Party?
Mrs. Klixg. Well, I will say this for myself personally, that I
don't recall signing up any member who was in industry. I myself
didn't do this.
Mr. Tavexxer. I am asking your knowledge about things, not
only just what you yourself did. You have told us that you were
active in the headciuarters of tlie Communist Party performing the
duties normally exercised by an organizer while the leadership of the
Communist Party was in the war. You have indicated that you have
special knowledge of those things.
Now we would like to know from you who were members known to
3-0U of the railroad group of the Communist Party.
Mrs. Klixg. Well, Mr. Tavenner, for the major period of my activi-
ties in the party the party operated on a neighborhood basis. They
had a Soutti Side Branch and they had a West Side Branch. And I
don't recall my participating in an}^ industrial conference or working
with any industrial unit. I was working with the neighborhood
branches which were organized on the basis of where people lived and
not where they worked.
Mr. Scherer. ]Mr. Chairman, she has evaded answering the
question of counsel, and I ask you to du-ect her to answer the
question.
Mr. Moulder. The mtness has been evasive, and the committee
does respectfully direct 3'ou to answer the question.
Mrs. Klixg. I am sorry. I don't want to be evasive. I will try
to answer the question. Would you ask me again.
Mr. Tavexxer. Yes.
Will you read the question, please.
Mr. Scherer. The question was whether or not she knew the names
of those individuals who were in the railroad segment of the Commu-
nist Party.
Mr. Tavexxer. I would like for the exact question to be read.
(Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter as follows:)
Mr. Tavenner. I am asking your knowledge about things, not only just what
you yourself did. You have tofd us that j'ou were active in the headquarters of
the Communist Party performing the duties normally exercised by an organizer
while the leadership of the Communist Party was in the war. You have indi-
cated that you have special knowledge of those things.
Xow we would like to know from you who were members known to you of the
railroad group of the Communist Party.
Mrs. Klixg. Well, I have to sa}" that I cannot tell names.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to
answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is redirected to answer the question.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Klixg. Excuse me.
Mr. Moulder. You are directed by the committee to answer the
question.
Mrs. Klixg. Well, on the groimds of conscience and the question,
the open legal question of exposm-e, I will have to decline the answer.
4926 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. This very document, issued on the 3d day of March
1946, states that:
In this campaign the aim of every comrade must be to recruit only those who
will be active, who will contribute to achieve the following qualitative and quan-
titative improvements of our party organization.
And one of the quahtative items is this :
Qualitative improvement in the existing neighborhood clubs and organization
of series of new clubs in the important political and industrial sections.
And you have told us tliat you went to Kansas City for several
months that same year after that time and engaged in recruiting
work.
Mrs. Kling. Trying to recruit.
Mr. Tavenner. You said that there were 2 or 3 members of the
railroad group in Kansas City. Who were they?
Mrs. Kling. Mr. Tavenner, I honestly don't remember their names.
That is 10 years ago, and I don't remember their names.
Mr. Moulder. If you could remember would you tell us?
Mrs. Kling. No, Mr. Moulder.
Mr. RouDEBusH. If I may, as we do in court, object to the question
as to what she might do.
Mr. Tavenner. In this document, issued in March of 1946, pm--
suant to which you engaged in recruiting work, appears this statement:
Following are some of the proposed assignments:
Electrical —
and then the name "Dottie" appears after that, and the name "Zollie."
We have had testimony here that Dottie referred to a Mrs. James
Sage. We have heard testimony that Zoliie referred to Zollie
Carpenter.
Do you know to whom the name "Bill" referred as one of those
responsible for electric?
Mrs. Kling. I cannot answer for the reasons I gave heretofore.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is respectfully directed to answer the
question.
Mr. Tavenner. The designation
Excuse me.
Mrs. Kling. I am sorry but I cannot answer the question on the
basis of the previous explanation.
Mr. Moulder. You mean you refuse to answer for the same reasons
previously stated?
Mrs. Kling. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Tavenner. The designation of youth is made with the names
after it of Ray and Sue.
We have heard evidence that Ray referred to Ray Wolverin.
Do you knov/ to whom the name "Sue" refers?
Mrs. Kling. Mr. Tavenner, I will have to decline to answer that
because I cannot be a tattletale, and also because there is a question
of whether naming certain names would be helpful to the developing
of legislation on these matters.
Mr. Tavenner. The reference to packing is made here with the
names following it of Joe and Helen. Do you know to whom those
names refer?
Mrs. Kling. Well, I decline to answer for the same reasons, the
same two reasons given in my previous answers.
COAllVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST, LOUIS, MO., AREA 4927
Mr. Tavenner. Wasn't Helen Musiel a functionary of the Com-
munist Party here in March of 1946? By here I mean in St. Louis.
Mrs. Kling. I will have to decline to answer that question.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer that
question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Air. ScHERER. Helen Musiel is a witness that we have under
subpena for this very hearing and who has failed to answer that
subpena because of an alleged defect in the subpena. So it can be
readily seen why this witness' testimony with reference to Helen
Musiel is important.
Mr. Moulder. The Avitness is directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Kling. I will decline to answer that. You are questioning
me about things that occurred 10 years ago. A lot of the questions I
honest!}" couldn't answer if I wanted to. But I will have to continue
to decline the naming of other people because that kind of thing is just
abhorrent to me.
Mr. ScHERER. The matter of Helen Alusiel is a very present matter
before this committee. Any information that 3'ou have regarding
Helen Alusiel is vitally important to this committee.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Can you honestly answer the question I asked you
regarding Helen ^Musiel, if you desired to answer it?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. That seems a hypothetical question.
Mr. Tavenner. No. You said that there are some people that you
could not honestly answer. I am asking you if you can honestly
answer that question as to Helen Musiel.
Mrs. Kling. And the original question was, sir?
Mr. Tavenner. Was whether or not Helen Musiel was a function-
ary of the Communist Party in March 1946.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. My best recollection is that I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you work in the same office with her?
Mrs. Kling. In March of 1946?
Mr. Tavenner. Any time in 1946.
Mrs. Kling. There we are on names again.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes; it is the same name that you couldn't
remember a moment ago.
Mrs. Kling. No. I was answering your specific question as to a
specific time, Mr. Tavenner, before. Now you are asking a more
general question.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well. You are unable to answer as to the
specific date of March 2 or 3.
Can you honestly answer the question as to whether she was a
functionary of the Communist Party at any time?
(The witness confere with her counsel.)
Ivlrs. Kling. That is another question, sir. And I caimot answer
a question like that.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer that
question because it is vitally important. And what happened here
this morning demonstrates the fallacy of the position she takes.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer,
Mrs. Kling. I decline to answer for the previous reasons given.
4928 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN" ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Moulder. May I also ask 3-011, do you know Helen Musiel?
Are you acquainted with Helen Musiel?
Mrs. Kling. Well, I will have to decline to answer that question.
Mr. Moulder. And the committee cannot accept that response to
the question. You are dhected to answer the question.
I said the committee cannot accept that reason for refusing to
answer that question, and you are directed to answer.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. In view of the context of the question in relation to
what happened this morning, the nonappearance of this person, I
woidd like to state that as of now I know nothing about this person.
Mr. Moulder. As of what?
Mrs. Kling. As of now I know nothing about tliis person.
Mr. Moulder. I asked you if you were acquainted with her.
Mrs. Kling. Well, I decline to answer, Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Scherer. Did you ever know her?
Mrs. Kling. I decline to answer on the basis of the previous reasons
given.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that 3^ou direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mr. Scherer. When was the last time you saAv Helen Musiel?
Mrs. Kling. I cannot answer for the reasons previously given.
Mr. Scherer. When was the last time you had any contact with
Helen Musiel?
Mrs. Kling. I cannot name names here of other people.
I am willing to tell 3'ou whatever vou want to know about myself
and what I did.
Mr. Moulder. In connection with that I would like to ask a
question.
You say 3^ou left the Communist Partv^ and were no longer officially
associated witli it in the vear of 1947?
Mrs. Kling. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. Do 3'ou mean 3'ou left 3'our association and official
capacit3^ or did 3'ou sever 3'om- relations witli the Communist Part3'
completelv?
Mrs. Kling. Well, at the time tliat I stopped attending meetings
I was not on the pa3Toll of tlie Communist Party, and I had private
emplovment as a st enogi-apher in a nonpolitical wa3^.
Mr. Moulder. Then I wish to ask 3-ou this question:
Do you know or have 3^ou any knowledge of a meeting held by
witnesses who were subpenaed to appear before this committee a few
days prior to the convening of the committee of this hearing wherein
there was a meeting and discussion on liow the3^ would refuse to
testif3' and the manner in which the3^ would conduct themselves in
their appearance before the committee?
Mrs. Kling. Mr. Moulder, I have been reading the papers closeh^
ever since I received my subpena, and the only knowledge I have of
such a gathering was a statement in a story in the Post-Dispatch
several da^-^s ago.
Mr. Moulder. Then 3^ou were not present at sucli a meeting?
Mrs. Kling. No, sir.
Mr. \IouLDER. Veiy well.
Now, coming back to 3^om- testimony concerning 3'our severing of
jour relations with tlie Communist Party, 3"ou were a teaclier, as I
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4929
understand it, that taught one of the classes at a Communist Party
meeting or school?
Mrs. Kling. Well, at various times dm^ing my membership I taught
classes.
Mr. Moulder. Therefore, you were evidently familiar with the
philosophy and ideology and the objects of the Communist Party in
the United States, were you not?
Mrs. Kling. Well, I tliought so at the time, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Now at the time you believed in those objects and
philosophy and purposes of the Communist Party, did you not?
Mrs. Kling. Well, let's say I believed in my interpretation of them.
Mr. Moulder. Now have you since you have severed your active
association with the Communist Party changed your opinion and
belief in the Communist Party?
Mrs. Kling. Well, sir, I tliink that the Communist Party in this
country has become sort of a joke.
Mr. Moulder. Do you mean to say that at that time that you
considered it a joke, in 1947?
Mrs. Kling. When I was a member I didn't, but I came to see — ■ — ■
Mr. Moulder. Then you have changed your attitude and opinion
of it since then?
Mrs. Kling. Yes; I believe I have.
Mr. Moulder. You believe you have?
Mrs. Kling. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. Have you been approached by persons since you
failed to attend Communist Party meetings to return as a member of
the party?
Airs. Kling. Now, let's see. I don't believe so, sir. I don't
believe that anybody ever came and asked me to come back into the
Communist Party. I think I avoided those contacts that might lead
to that kind of thing.
Mr. Moulder. Why did you stop going to Communist Party
meetings?
Mrs. Kling. Well, that is a complex question and it involves my
personal life. But I will tell you the plain, unvarnished truth about
it.
I met a young man with whom I fell in love and he strongly dis-
approved of my membership and activities. And, well, then I just
stopped going to meetings because of that.
Mr. Moulder. Do you now disapprove of the Communist Party
activities and its objectives and purposes?
Mrs. Kling. Yes; I believe I do.
Mr. Moulder. And philosophy in this country?
Mrs. Kling. I believe I do; yes, sir.
(The witness confers witli lior counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us, please, whether or not Helen
Miisiel worked in the same office with you?
Mrs. Kling. Excuse me.
Mr. RouDEBUSH. We are finished. Go right ahead. I don't
believe she heard the question.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you teU the committee, please, whether
Helen Musiel worked in the same office in the district headquarters
of the Communist Party with you?
4930 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
]Mrs. Kling. I decline to answer because it involves naming another
individual, and I don't vant to injm'e other people.
Mr. Tavenner. Another notation from the document of March 2
is "Auto" followed by the name Maries; Maries.
Do you knoM^ to whom Alarie refers?
Mrs. Kling. Gosh, I might and I might not, su-. So I will just
have to decline on the basis that I do not want to harm other indi-
viduals.
Mr. Tavenner. There is also the notation ' 'Railroad " after which
is the name Helen. Is that the same Helen who had the responsi-
bility for packing house?
Mrs. Kling. I will have to decline to answer that on the same
gi'ounds previously given.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. I want at this time also to refer to Schoemehl
Exhibit 1. This is a Communist Part}" document entitled "Organ-
ization Department, Report to Clubs, April 14, 1947" and it reads as
follows, or at least part of it does:
Following consultation with the national organization commission of our part}',
the Missouri State board has made a number of important decisions. These
decisions are for the purpose of strengthening our party and its leadership in
order that our party can fulfill its role in organizing and leading the struggles of
our class and our people in Missouri. These decisions on organization include:
L That the Missouri district implement immediately and seriously its con-
centration policy in the electrical and machine industrj' bj^ establishing a con-
centration section plus the assignment of one full-time person to head the
concentration work.
Who was appointed as a fulltime person to head that concentration
work; if you know?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
]\Irs. Kling. I honestly don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. You do not know?
Airs. Kling. No, sir. If I did know at one time I can't remember
now.
Mr. Tavenner. The Communist Party did concentrate in the elec-
trical and machine industry; did it not?
Mrs. Kling. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. At that time Ray Koch, who signed this document
as organizational secretary, was in fact the organizational secretary;
was he not?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. That is a name.
I will have to decline to answ^er, Mr. Tavenner, on the same grounds
that I won't tattle on other people.
Mr. Tavenner. You are certainly not tattling on Ray Koch whose
name is appended to this document as organizational secretary.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. Well, if that is what the document says that is what
it is.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you serve under him?
(The witness confers with her coimsel.)
Airs. Kling. That is a name question again.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mrs. Kling. That involves my disclosing a relationship with some-
one else, which might do harm to him because of my membership at
the time. And so I have to decline to answer.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4931
yir. ScHERER. What was the reason for declining to answer that
question? Would you repeat that?
Mrs. Kling. That if I answered it might — well, if I were asked if
I knew Joe Blow in 1946 and I said I did he might get m trouble be-
cause it might be assumed that since I was a member that he was a
member.
Mr. Tavenner. What about your Government?
Mrs. Kling. 1 have a high respect for my Government.
Mr. Tavenner. Don't you think your Government will get in
difficulty if it doesn't do somethhig about the Communist business,
that the Congress may understand what is going on in the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Klixg. Well, what is going on? I don't know what is going
on in the Communist Party, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. " And the only way we can find out is to call
before this committee persons who do know. And you are in a posi-
tion to give us the information as to some of the persons w^ho may
still be very active m the organization here m the city at this moment,
Mrs. Kling. Well, I don't Icnow that, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Now 1 want to ask you this question:
In this original document which I mentioned to j^ou, the one bearing
date of March 2 and 3, 1946, reference is made to this, that there
should be estabhshed at least one professional cell of the Communist
Party.
What is meant by a professional cell of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Kling. Well, my interpretation of that would be it would be
composed of people who were m the professions, the arts and sciences,
law.
Mr. Tavenner. The mtellectuals?
Mrs. Kling. Yes, I suppose you could say that.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, you were one of the intellectuals. Were
you a member of a professional cell of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Kling. No; I was not.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there a professional cell of the Communist
Party durmg the period that you were active in the district head-
quarters?
Mrs. Kling. Let's see.
I honestlj^ don't remember. My impression now is that the pro-
fessionals were in the neighborhood clubs that I mentioned before.
Now I am not sure about this.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me see if I can refresh your recollection.
We have had testimony from Mr. Schoemehl, who was in the Com-
munist Party at the instance of the I ederal Bureau of Investigation
during the period of time that you were — —
Mr. Scherer. Alay 1 interrupt, Air. Tavenner?
Air. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Air. Scherer. Here is a man who testified before this committee
under oath and admitted his membership ui the Communist Party
and told why he was in the Communist Party.
Did you know Air. Schoemehl?
Mrs. Kling. I don't want to bring in anj- names.
Mr. Scherer. You don't want to bring in any names because it
might hurt that individual. How could it hurt Air. Schoemehl?
Air. Schoemehl appeared before us on Satm-day in executive session
81594 — 56 — pt. 3 4
4932 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
under oath and admitted his membership in the Communist Party,
and told why he was in the Communist Party, and gave us an abun-
dance of testimony.
Now what happens to your argument or your statement that it is
going to hurt him for you to tell us whether you knew Scho.emehl?
Mrs. Kling. Even on Schoemehl I am willing to say what I did,
and talk about party structure and so forth, but not names.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, I think that we have demonstrated
here the utter fallacy of the position of this witness. I ask that you
direct the witness to answer the question whether she laiew Schoemehl.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer.
Mrs. Kling. I decline to answer on the grounds as previously
stated.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, you said here you are going to tell all that
you did in the Communist Party. How can you possibly hurt
Schoemehl? We want to know what you and Schoemehl did in the
Communist Party. He is willing for you to tell what he did, as far
as he is concerned.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. Well, these are matters of individual conscience. And
because Mr. Schoemehl 's conscience is not precisely that of mine in
this regard, then I cannot follow in his footsteps. Just because one
person does something doesn't mean that another person has to.
Mr. Scherer. Now Mr. Schoemehl told us about you, told us 3^ou
were a member of the Communist Party.
Mrs. Kling. All right.
Mr. Scherer. In that respect he was telling the truth, wasn't he?
Mrs. Kling. Yes, he was. And I have nothing to hide, Mr. Scherer,
on that basis.
Mr. Scherer. Then 3'ou knew him, did you not?
Mrs. Kling. I will have to decline to answer that.
Mr. Scherer. What was your activity with Schoemehl in the
Communist Party?
It isn't funny. This is serious.
Mrs. Kling. I am only smiling out of nervousness, Mr. Scherer.
I am not very happy here, you understand.
As a matter of fact
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. I will have to decline to answer that question.
Mr. Moulder. Are you about finished with this witness?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Will you tell us more about the professional cells of the Communist
Party. Were they not considered as supersecret, that the membership
of a professional cell of the Communist Party was not to be known
even by other Communist Party members other than those on the
very highest levels?
Mrs. Kling. When I was a member and worker in the Communist
Partj^ the structure was very loose. And while the rule may have
been that nobody was to know about any professional cell in actual
practice people did know each other. And I think probably the chief
difference in the form of activity was that the professionals met in
homes, each other's homes instead of going to party headquarters.
Mr. Tavenner. They, in fact, were told not to be at meetings
where other members of the Communist Partv woidd see them or
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, INIO., AREA 4933
know of their identity as members of tlie Communist Party. Isn't
that correct?
Mrs. Kling. I am not sure. I never heard of a specific directive
along that Hne, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Tliat was what was expected of them, wasn't it?
Mrs. Kling. 1 can't lionestly sav.
Mr. Moulder. The committee will stand ui recess for a period of
5 minutes, Mr. Tavenner.
(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken, there being present at the
time of taking the recess Representatives Moulder, Frazier, and
Scherer.)
(The subcommittee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess,
there being present Representatives Moulder and Scherer.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Tvir. Tavenner. Mrs. Kling, there is a bill pending in Congress now
providing certain requirements for members of the legal profession
in appearance before congressional committees and in courts with
regard to their possible membership in the Communist Party. It is
a subject which the chairman of this committee, in December of 1955
while in the course of hearings in Chicago, directed the staff to make
a study of and report to the committee.
Mr. Moulder. That was the chairman of the full committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Of the full committee, ves, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Walter.
Mr. Tavenner. Part of the consideration which the committee
has been giving has been the activity of lawyers who are members of
the National LawA^ers Guild and who, at the instance of the Com-
munist Party, have infdtrated that organization. Those lawyers,
wherever we have found them, have been members of a professional
cell of the Communist Party, the membership of which has been
kept ultra secret. That is one of the reasons that we are endeavoring
to discover the extent, the character, and extent of a professional cell
of the Communist Party which is reported to be here in St. Louis.
In the position that you occupied, although it was as long ago as
1946, it seems to me that with the handling of the literature of the
C-ommunist Party out of district headquarters, and all the other
information that would come to a person in the position that you were
in, that you woidd know about the membership of the professional
group of the Communist Party here at that time.
]SiOw is there any way in which you can aid the committee in
regard to that? And when I say aid the committee I am not only
speaking of names; I am speaking of the method by which the profes-
sional group of the Communist Party operated.
Mrs. Kling. Well, Air. Tavenner, as I stated before I honestly
don't remember w^hether at that time when I was working for the
Communist Party there was a separate i^rofessional cell. I am not
sure about that.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me see if I can refresh your recollection.
I started to do that a moment ago.
Tlie committee has received sworn testimony by Mr. Schoemehl
that in 1938, which was before you became connected with the party
here, the district organizer of the Communist Party assigned Dr. Sol
Londe and the person who later became his wife to the organization
of a pi-ofessional cell of the Commimist Party in St. Louis, and that
4934 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Dr. Londe presented to him, Mr. Schoemehl, a directive to permit
him to attend Communist Party meetings which were being con-
ducted by Mr. Schoemehl so that they coukl become acquainted with
the method by which Communist Party meetings were operated.
Mr. Schoemehl testified that Dr. Londe and the person who later
became his wife, whose name I do not recall — and I am not certain
that it is in evidence— attended 2 or possibly 3 of such meetings.
Now does that refresh your recollection as to the existence of a
Communist Party cell when you became a member in 1944 or at an}'
time while you were a member?
Mrs. Kling. Well, the structure of the structure of the Communist
Party was constantly changing. The party was always tryuig to
restructure itself in the branches and so on in order to find ways and
means of a more efficient operation, make sure more members got to
meetings, and so on.
I believe that from 1944 to 1945 the Communist Party was called
the Communist Political Association. And I believe they dropped
the cell structure, and that the groups met on a neighborhood basis.
Now there may have^ — —
When it was restructured again after the establishment of the
Communist Party they may have again established a professional cell.
I can't swear to it. It could be. As far as I know, there could have
been a professional cell at the time I was working in the Communist
Party office. And I really can't remember whether it was at the
time there were neighborhood groups or regular professional groups.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, was Dr. Sol Londe a member of the Commu-
nist Party during the period that you were a member of the party?
Mrs. Kling. I decline to answer on the basis that I don't want to
tattle on other people, and that it is an open question as to whether
this
The same answer.
Mr. Moulder. The committee cannot accept that response to the
question, nor your reason for refusing to answer, and we respectfully
direct you t-o answer the question.
Mrs. Kling. I will have to decline to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the policy of the Communist Party at
the time you were a member with regard to its membership being
active in mass organizations?
Airs. Kling. Oh, the Communist Party was always eager to extend
its influence and to put over its ideas with as many people as possible.
And the members were supposed to behave in an exemplary fashion,
and by the force of their behavior to convince other people that what
they believed was the correct thing to believe.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask — pardon me, Mr. Tavenner — do you
know Dr. Londe?
Mrs. Kling. I decline to answer, Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Moulder. For the same reason previousl}^ stated by you?
Mrs. Kling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moulder. And the committee makes the same statement:
We cannot accept that as a reason for refusing to answer, and you are
directed to answer.
Mrs. Kling. Well, I will have to decline to answer.
Mr. Moulder. Bearing in mind, if 3^ou will, the question did not
ask you as to whether or not Dr. Londe was a Communist, or refer to
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4935
any associations between you and him as Communists, but just a
pure and simple question as to whether or not you are acquainted
mth him.
(The witness confers with her counseh)
Mr. Tavenner. Have you finished?
Would you answer the question, please.
Mrs. Kling. Yes, I have been acquainted with Dr. Londe.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with him between 1944 and
1947?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. Mr. Moulder asked me a simple question and I gave
a truthful answer. And now you are going to try to involve me in
naming names in connection with party activities, and I cannot do
that.
Mr. Moulder. Mrs. Kling, may I plead with you. I think
probably you don't — I \vill ask you a question.
Do you realize the seriousness and the threat of communism as a
world conspiracy which seeks to control all free countries?
Mrs. Kling. Well, do you want a personal opinion on this?
Mr. Moulder. You don't recognize or see that danger in com-
munism?
Mi-s. Kling. Well, what I don't as an individual see is the value
of naming a few people around St. Louis
Mr. Moulder. Our object here is to ascertain information which
you possess, that you frankly refuse to give for the reasons which
you have stated, which the committee does not accept.
I remind you, and I am trying to unpress upon you the seriousness
of the threat of communism to our democracy, our Nation and all
other free countries. And we are seeking to obtain information from
you which would aid our Congress, the C-ongress of the United States,
to be better informed to consider legislation to protect our national
security against communism under a world-wide conspiracy of
communism.
I am pointing that out to you so that you, as an American citizen,
can cooperate with this committee in helping us secure legislation
and take other steps that might be necessary to protect our national
securitv.
Mrs. Kling. Well, I appreciate the high purpose of the committee,
but as it involves my individual values as to telling on other
people— —
Mr. Moulder. But that is the very point.
Don't you think that your own Government and your own country's
welfare and freedom and security is far higher and above the position
which you take in connection with individuals, which you take in
protecting individuals? Don't you think that our Nation's welfare
and security is far more important than that?
Mrs. Kling. I can only answer that a person has to live with
himself and with his own conscience. And I couldn't undertake to
name a few people that I may or may not remember as being active
9 years ago when I was a member of the party.
(Representative James B. Frazier, Jr. entered the hearing room at
this point.)
Mr. Scherer. Madam, would you take that same position if a very
close friend and associate of yours had been engaged in violating the
4936 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Federal Narcotics Act and come in here before our committee and sa}*
you just don't want to tell what he did insofar as dispensing narcotics?
Would you take that same position if you had that information about
him?
Mrs. Kling. Well, I think that involves something criminal. And
I don't feel I was engaged — I never did anything illegal or criminal.
Mr. ScHERER. We didn't say that you did anj^thing illegal. But
the courts have held that the Communist Party is not a political party
as we know parties, political parties in this country, but that the Com-
munist Party is part and parcel of an international, criminal con-
spiracy far greater than any conspiracy to violate the Narcotics Act of
the Federal Government. It is the greatest criminal conspiracy the
world has ever known. It has been definitely established as such b}'
the decisions of the courts. And the Congress of the United States
has said so.
So when you say that is a different situation that I presented to you,
it is not a different situation at all.
In fact, as I have said, the Communist conspiracy certainlv is a far
more dangerous thing to the security and welfare of this country than
is a violation of the Narcotics Act of this country.
I just wanted to demonstrate to you that the responsibility isn't
upon you any more; it is upon the Congress. If it is in the courts it
rests upon the court or the people as a whole. And when you are sub-
penaed to come and testify what you know you are relieved of any
personal responsibility.
As I tried to explain to you this morning, the whole system of
jurisprudence in this country would fail if a witness that is called into
court could say that "I don't want to tell what I know, even what I
know about an accident case. I saw an accident happen, but it hap-
pened to be a friend of mine and I don't want to involve him, and I
don't want to teU, therefore, whose fault it was."
If we followed your reasoning to a conclusion we would have no
government at all, no judicial system.
I am done preaching.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I have a du-ection to the wit-
ness to answer the question that I asked her, which was whether or
not she knew Dr. Sol Londe between 1944 and 1947?
Mr. Moulder. I seem to recall that we did inform the witness that
the committee did not accept her reply. But, if not, why then, you
are so now advised and requested and directed to answer that
question.
Mrs. Kling. Well, I appreciate Mr. Scherer's position, but on the
basis that there is still an open question that may come before the
Supreme Court soon — whether the naming of names is essential to
the development of legislation — I decline to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Kling, we were speaking of Communist Party
work in mass organizations, and you advised us of the interest of the
Communist Party in mass organizations.
The work that the Communists were directed to do in mass organi-
zations v/as for the purpose of promoting and disseminating Com-
munist propaganda; was it not?
Mrs. Kling. Yes; I suppose that is true.
Mr. Tavenner. And in order to more effectively have a medium
in which to propagate its principles and its views and its lines the
COMJMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4937
Communist Party would, on occasions, organize groups made up of
some members of the Communist Party and others who were non-
Communist Party members. That is true; is it not?
Mrs. Klixg. Yes; I think so.
Mr. Tavenxer. The Civil Rights Congress was one of those groups;
was it not?
Mrs. Klixg. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Tavexxer. Were you active in the Civil Rights Congress?
Mrs. Klixg. No, sir.
Mr. Tavexxer. Were members of the Communist Party directed
to take part in the work of the Civil Rights Congress?
Mrs. Klix'^g. I honestly don't know, sir.
Mr. Tavexxer. What mass organizations did you take part in, if
any? Or was your time fully consumed in the office work of the
Communist Party?
Mrs. Klixg. There was plenty to do. Yes; I would say I was
active in the Communist Party itself.
Mr. Tavexxer. These mass organizations were also used by the
Communist Party to raise funds in order to defray expenses of the
diffusion of the propaganda, dissemination of the propaganda. Isn't
that correct?
Mrs. Klixg. Well, when I was working for the Communist Party
I don't recall any money coming straight from any mass organization
to the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavexxer. But money was raised for the purpose of dissem-
inating the propaganda that the Communist Party, was interested in
handling through the particular mass organizations; wasn't it?
Mrs. Klixg. Would you give me an example so I could — a hypo-
thetical example.
Mr. Tavexxer. Well, this is one:
We understand that a defense committee was organized here in the
city of St. Louis for the purpose of raising funds to defray the expenses
of the trial of those who were being tried under the Smith Act, and for
propaganda purposes.
I said and for propaganda purposes.
In other words, to attempt to educate the public to things that the
Communist Party was interested in demonstrating. That is the type
of thing I mean.
I could give you a number of illustrations, but I think that makes
the point clear.
Airs. Klixg. Well, if 3-ou niean that Communists worked m other
organizations that were not the Communist Party, and that they
attempted to convince other people that what they were doing was
the thing to do, and to get them to believe what the}" believed, yes;
that is true.
Mr. Tavexx^er. And to raise money to propagate it?
Mrs. Klixg. Well, like I said, as far as I know, no money ever
came from any other organization to the Communist Part}', and I
can't say about this committee you are talking about. I don't know
about it.
Mr. Tavexxer. We heard considerable evidence in Los Angeles
within the past 30 days, and from Capt. Nikolai Khokhlov, an officer
of the Soviet Intelligence, who said that large sums of money were
sent by the Soviet IJnion to the various Communist parties of the
4938 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST, LOUIS, MO., AREA
world. He spoke of the Communist parties on the continent of
Europe, and I asked him specifically about the sending of money to
the United States for the carrying on of the work of the Communist
Party here.
I have no information at all that that money came down to lower
levels of the Communist Party such as a district. But were you ever
aware of such a thing occurring?
Mrs. Kling. No, sir; I wasn't. And I believe that my wages
were somewhere between $20 and $25 a week. And I never saw any
large sums of money.
Mr. Tavenner. I am not asking about large sums of money paid
to vou.
But was money brought into this district to propagate the objec-
tives of the Communist Party from the national headquarters in
New York?
Mrs. Kling. From the national headquarters in New York?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mrs. Kling. Which was the American headquarters?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes ; of the Communist Party of the United States.
Mrs. Kling. Did they ever send money into this district?
Yes; I believe that they did.
Mr. Tavenner. What was that money used for?
Mrs. Kling. For literature, and maybe it was general operating
expenses; you know, paying office and paper and things like that.
Mr. Tavenner. And salaries?
Mr. Kling. I don't remember. I honestly don't remember where
the — how the money was broken down, I never saw any budget of
how, of where what money came from and to whom. Whether the
salary money came from outside of St. Louis or not, the money
Mr. Tavenner. Was that money sent by check?
Mrs. Kling. I don't know. It may have been a money order, but
I honestly don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. To whom was the money sent?
Mrs. Kling. I don't remember that.
Mr. Tavenner. Did it come regularly month by month?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kling. I don't remember.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever learn the source of those funds, as
to where the national organization got money with which to run the
district organizations?
Mrs. Kling. Well, I would assume
I had assumed at the time that the national office got it from con-
tributions of members, sale of literature, and I don't know what other
sources.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not there was a State
law in Missouri during the tim.e of the operation of the mass organi-
zations, when you were a member, which required the licensing of an
organization for the raising of funds by public subscription?
Mrs. Kling. No; I don't know that, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. There are some States in which there are laws
requiriiig organizations to procure licenses, such as when a cause party
is held for the benefit of the Daily Worker, that a license be procured
for that purpose.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4939
You are not aware of any such law in existence in Missouri while
you were connected with the district office, are you?
Mrs. Kling. No; I wasn't aware of that.
Mr. Tavenner. That is a matter that the committee is giving
some consideration to.
(Representative James B. Frazier, Jr., M'ithdrew from the hearing
room at this point.)
Mr. Tavenner. You as an intellectual have been trained in the
Communist Party. You are no doubt familiar with the Communist
Party history. I want to ask you if you are familiar with the activ-
ities of the Trade Union Unity League which, of course, was prior to
your membership in the Communist Party but it was very active a
short period before you came in.
Mrs. Kling. Yes; that name is familiar, but I really don't know
anything about it.
Was that during the depression?
Mr. Tavenner. The Trade Union Unity League was organized in
Cleveland August 31, 1929, and was an American section of the Red
International of Labor Unions.
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Many of the labor unions at that time and for
quite a period afterward were affiliated with the Trade Union Unity
League. It was succeeded by the World Federation of Trade Unions,
with its headquarters in Prague.
The American Federation of Labor refused to join the WFTU
The CIO, for purposes of its own, did affiliate with it and tried to save
it from Communist influence, and, upon failing, withdrew Irom it.
But the World Federation of Trade Unions, with its headquarters
in Prague, continues until this day, and this committee is studying the
problem of circulating its official bulletin to labor unions and wherever
they think the Communist Party could gain anything by circulating it.
I want to know if during your period of membership, from 1944 to
1947, the Communist Party here was active in any way in handling
among labor unions this official publication of that organization" pub-
lished in Prague.
Mrs. Kling. Not to my recollection, no.
I thought that that had gone out of business in the 1930's.
Mr. Tavenner. As an organization in this country it did because
the American Federation of Labor and the CIO wouldn't stand for it.
But it still surreptitiously is circulating its propaganda of a very harm-
ful nature among labor unions in this country. And the question has
arisen, and there has been considerable study given to the question,
of whether or not there can be a legal answer to the situation of stop-
ping the delivery of it througli the mails when it originates^from a
foreign country.
Mrs. Kling, Well, as far as I know, Mr. Tavenner, I have^never
seen it.
Mr. ScHERER. I think we should have another recess.
Mr. Tavenner. I think I am about through, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. ScHERER. Witness, do j^ou want to continue?
Mrs. Kling. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. RouDEBUSH. I think she would like to go on.
Mrs. Kling. I would like to get home to my little boy.
Mr, Tavenner. You may go right now as far as I am concerned.
4940 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Mrs. Kling. Thank you.
Mr. Moulder. Call the next witness, please, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Hall.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which
you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you, God?
Mr. Hall. I do.
TESTIMONY OF GILBERT HAROLD HALL
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please?
Mr. Hall. Harold Hall.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that your full name?
Mr. Hall. Gilbert Harold Hall.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are not accompanied by
counsel. I desire to inform you that it is the practice of the com-
mittee to permit a witness to have counsel with him, or to consult
counsel at any time he may desu'e during the course of his interro-
gation.
Mr. Hall. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Hall?
Mr. Hall. I was born in St. Louis here in 1919.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do vou now reside?
Mr. Hall. St. Louis.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a resident in St. Louis?
Mr. Hall. I have alwaj^s had a home m St. Louis.
Mr. Tavenner. It has always been your home?
Mr. Hall. It has always been my home.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you accepted employment in areas awaj^
from St. Louis for any period, as much as a month?
Mr. Hall. Well, I don't know the answer to your question. Dur-
ing the war I was a merchant seaman.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did you join the Merchant Marine?
Mr. Hall. I think it was from about June 1943, to December 1945,
I^believe.
Mr. Tavenner. After your return from that service in 1945, how
were you emploj^ed?
Mr. Hall. I would declme to answer that under the privilege of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. I did not understand.
Mr. Hall. I decline to answer the question under the privilege of
the fifth amendment.
(Representative James B. Frazier, Jr., returned to the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Hall, the committee's investigation discloses
that on August 11, 1950, you applied for a LTnited States passport
mider the name of Gilbert Harold Hall, and at that time you stated
in the application that you intended to travel in France, Belgium,
Holland, Italy, Czechoslovakia, and Poland as a tourist.
Did you file such an application with the State Department?
Mr. Hall. I would decline to answer that under the privilege of
the fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST, LOUIS, MO., AREA 4941
Mr. Tavenner. Was a passport issued to 3^011 in 1950?
Mr. Hall. I also decline to answer that under the previously stated
reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend a meetuig of the World Federation
of Trade Unions in Warsaw in September 1950?
Mr. Hall. I decUne to answer that under the privilege of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Moulder. Are you referring to Warsaw, Poland?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moulder. We have a Warsaw in Benton County, Mo.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of a trade union in 1950?
Mr. Hall. I decline to answer that under the privilege of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you meaji to take the position that membership
in a trade imion might tend to incriminate you?
(Representative Gordon H. Scherer left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Hall. I don't know the legal language.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that fair to yoiu- union? If we don't know the
union with which you were connected, those who are in it know
whether you were or not. Isn't this a very unjust position to take,
that you will not admit membership in it because to do so might tend
to incriminate you?
Mr. Hall. I will reassert my privilege under the fifth amendment
not to answer the question.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there anj^thing of an illegal or criminal nature
about the trade union of which you were a member?
(There was no response.)
Mr. Tavenner. Actually there wasn't, was there?
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer that under the privilege of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. However, you did represent a trade union abroad,
did you not?
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer that question under the privilege
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee has had access to an English lan-
guage information bulletin published by the Polish Press Agency.
The number of the information bulletin is 108, and the date is wSeptem-
ber 2 1 , 1 950 . In that bulletin reference is made to an American named
Gilbert Hail as a person who attended the September 1950, session of
the World Federation of Trade Unions in Warsaw, Poland, as a repre-
sentative of the railroad workers of the United States.
The bulletin proceeds to give a summary of Mr. Hall's remarks at
the meeting, and I v/ant to read that to you and ask 3^ou whether you
were correctly quoted:
Gilbert Hall, representative of the U. S. A. Railwaymen, spoke of the existing
contrast between the peaceful desires of the American working masses and the
criminal plans of the genocidal producers of atomic bombs — the Wall Street
imperialists. The speaker said that since 1940, owing to unemployrnent^, his
trade union has lost one third of its members. The American troops in Korea
are recruited either from unemployed workers or from those who are threatened
with unemployment. Speaking on the campaign in defense of peace, Hall said
that notwithstanding police repressions, 2 million persons in the United States
have signed the Stockholm appeal.
4942 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Were you correctly quoted as having made those statements in an
address?
Mr. Hai,l. I will decline to answer that under the privilege of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Did an agent of the State Department call upon
you on your return to require you to surrender your passport, and
you refused to do so?
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer under the previously stated
reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you not fail to advise the State Department
of the real piu-pose of your trip to Europe, by stating that you were
going there as a tourist when actually you intended, you expected to
attend the meeting of the World Federation of Trade Unions?
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer that question on the basis of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you an article appearing in the New World
Review, April 1951; it is entitled ''American Railroader in Ein'ope"
by Amy Schechtor. I will ask you to examine it, please, and state
whether or not you gave the interview which is reported there.
(Document handed to the witness.)
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
]Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document for identification
only, Mr. Chairman, and ask that it be marked "Hall Exhibit No. T'
for retention in the files of the committee.
Mr. Moulder. The document will be so marked.
(The document referred to was marked "Hall Exhibit No. 1" and
filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever write an article for the Mai'ch of
Labor?
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. This committee made an investigation of the
March of Labor, and has issued a report describing its Communist
character. In this issue of the March of Labor bearing date of
March 1951, I see an article entitled—
U. S. Rail Worker Sees Europe. St. Louis Engineer Attends International Labor
Transport Meeting and Finds a Warm Spirit of Fraternity and Solidarity and
a Deep Yearning for Peace. By G. Harold Hall.
. Will you examine it, please, and state whether or not you are the
author of that article?
(Document handed to the witness.)
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer that also under the previously
stated grounds, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document for identification
purposes only, ask that it be marked "Hall Exhibit No. 2" for retention
in the committee files.
Mr. Moulder. The document will be so marked.
(The document referred to was marked "Hall Exhibit No. 2" for
identification and filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Hall, did you attend a meeting in St. Louis of
the Communist Party which was addressed by Mr. Otto Wangerin,
a member of the railroad unit of the Communist Party on a national
level, or possibly, a member of the Communist Railroad Commission?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4943
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer that question on the basis of
the fifth amendment.
Air. Tavexner. Will you tell the committee whether or not infor-
mation was given to the local members of the Communist Party that
if the Communist revolution in this country was to succeed it would
be necessary to control the railroads as the capitalist system was
dependent upon transportation?
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. You were a member of the railroad group of the
Communist Party in St. Louis; were you not?
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer that on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. You are not a member of the railroad group at this
time; are you?
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer that also.
Mr. Tavenner. But 3-ou are an officer of the Communist Party on
a high level of the district in the Communist Part}^ of which Missouri
is now a part?
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Tavenner. Are jou a member of the State board, Missouri
State Board of the Communist Party at this time?
Mr. Hall. I decline to answer that also.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or
not there is in the city of St. Louis an organized group at this time of
the Communist Party within the field of railroading?
Mr. Hall. 1 will decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you succeed Ralph Shaw as district organizer
of the Conmiunist Party for St. Louis?
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you district organizer now?
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer that also.
Mr. Tavenner. We have learned a great deal about the activities
of the Communist Party in this area operating within mass organi-
zations.
Were you assigned by the Communist Party to active participation
in a mass organization known as the National Negro Labor Council?
Mr. Hall. I will decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman,
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Richard Stanford;
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you, God?
Mr. Stanford. I do.
4944 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS^ MO., AREA
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD STANFORD
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is you name, please?
Mr. Stanford. Richard L. Stanford.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Stanford, you have the right to have counsel
with you if you desire, or to confer with counsel at any time during
the interrogation should you find it advisable.
When and where were you born?
Mr. Stanford. Mississippi, May 9, 1905.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in St. Louis?
Mr. Stanford. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived m St. Louis?
Mr. Stanford. Since 1922.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us, please, what your employment
has been since 1945 or how you were employed in 1945?
Mr. Stanford. Well, I was on the sicklist ever since the war.
Mr. Tavenner. You haven't done any work since you have been
in the Army?
Mr. Stanford. Yes; I ain't been in the Army. I ain't been able to
go.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you employed in 1945?
Mr. Stanford. 1945 I was employed at Mississippi Valley Produce
Co.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you located then?
Mr. Stanford. Then?
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you living then?
Mr. Stanford. Living in Carr Square Village.
Mr. Tavenner. Li what State?
Mr. Stanford. Here in St. Louis.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next employment?
Mr. Stanford. I ain't had no other next employment.
You mean before then?
Mr. Tavenner. Let's go back. Yes, before then.
Mr. Stanford. The last regular job I had was with Terminal
Railroad.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you have that?
Mr. Stanford. From 1923 up until the depression when I was cut
off.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did you quit working there?
Mr. Stanford. For the terminal?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Stanford. I didn't quit. The depression come and I was cut
off.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien were you cut off?
Mr. Stanford. Along about 1932, I think.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee has received evidence here from
Mr. Schoemehl that you were the organizer of the cell of the Com-
munist Party, a group in the Communist Party in 1951. Is that
right?
Mr. Stanford. I don't remember. I have been sick all that time.
I don't remember— done nothing — all that. I don't know. I decline
to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it that you do not know or you just do not
want to answer that?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO,, AREA 4945
Mr. Stanford. I decline to answer that because I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Because you don't know?
Mr. Stanford. I decline to answer that because of the constitu-
tional rifjht of the fifth amendment. I don't know as far as enough
to get into that.
Mr. Tavenner. Ai-e you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Stanford. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no fm-ther questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. An}^ questions, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
The committee will stand in recess for a period of 5 minutes.
(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken, there being present at the
time of taking the recess Representatives Moidder and Frazier.)
(The subcommittee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess,
there being present Representatives Moulder, Frazier, and Scherer.)
Mr. Moulder. Call 3^0 m- next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
The next witness, please, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Romey Hudson.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which ^'■ou are about to
give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help 3'ou, God?
Mr. Hudson. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ROMEY HUDSON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
R. L. WITHERSPOON
Mr. Tavenner. What is yom- name, please?
Mr. Hudson. Romey Hudson.
Mr. Tavenner. R-o-m-e-y?
Mr. Hudson. Right.
Mr. Tavenner. H-u-d-s-o-n?
Mr. Hudson. Right.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying tlie witness please
identify himself for th.e record.
Mr. WiTHERSPOOX. R. L. Witherspoon of the Missouri bar.
Mr. Tavenner. When and wliere were vou born, Mr. Hudson?
Mr. Hudson. June 3, 1886, West Point, 'Miss.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside?
Mr. Hudson. 4161 St. Louis, St. Louis.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in St. Louis?
Mr. Hudson. 50 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, how you have
been employed since 1945.
Air. Hudson. I worked at the Principia School 33 3'ears, and I was
retired June 25, 1954.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with a person by the name of
Schoemebl, Joseph John Schoemebl?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Air. Ht'Dson. I will not answer that question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hudson. I decline to answer tl;at question. It tends — It
mio;ht incriminate me.
4946 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Schoemehl testified before tJiis committee
in executive session and described the incident which terminated his
membership in the Communist Party. He told the committee that
he was tried by three persons who constituted the review commission
of the Communist Party here in St. Louis. And, although they did
not render a decision in the matter, they questioned his loyalty to
the Communist Party. They suspected that he was giving infor-
mation to persons that the Communist Party thought were not
entitled to it, and the result was that that was the end of his work in
the Commimist Party.
He testified that —
I think I will read that part of his testimony to you.
Helen Musiel phoned me. And Jim Forrest, Romey Hudson and Helen Musiel
were the ones who questioned me. Ray Koch had been the head of the review
commission up to the last that I heard. But he was in Chicago then and had
been transferred to Chicago, or at least had gone to Chicago. And after the
questions and up to almost the very last minute nothing was said al:)out this
being a review commission. But then after these notes had been brought out —
And there he was referring to notes that he took in a Communist
Party meeting which some members of the Communist Party observed
him take —
then Jim Forrest advised me that this was a session of the review commission
and they would render their decision.
Do you recall sitting on a review commission which tried Mr,
Schoemelil along with Helen Musiel and Jim Forrest?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Hudson. I assert the same pri\ ilege under the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Tavenner. You were a member of the review commission of
the Communist Party in 1949 along with Helen Musiel and Jim
Forrest, were you not?
Mr. Hudson. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know where Helen Musiel lives now?
Mr. Hudson. I assert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Is Jim Forrest one of those who was tried and
convicted under the Smith Act in 1954?
Mr. Hudson. For the same reason I assert it.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Hudson. For the same reason I take the privilege of the fifth
amendment, and refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell this committee the names of those
who were members of the railroad unit of the Communist Party?
Mr. Hudson. For the sam.e reason I decline to answer such a ques-
tion.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time since 1945?
Mr. Hudson. I reassert the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Air. Moulder. The witness is excused.
COIVIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4947
The committee regrets to announce that it will be necessary for
the members of the committee to be present in Washington, D. C., to
vote upon a very important pending bill.
Therefore, we will be compelled to recess until Friday morning at
9:30 a. m., and other witnesses who have been subpenaed to attend
on this day or on tomorrow, Thursday, or Friday, are hereby notified
and directed to appear Friday morning at 9:30 o'clock in the morning.
The committee will stand in recess until 9:30 a. m., Friday morning.
(Wliereupon, at 4:40 p. m., Wednesday, June 6, the subcommittee
was recessed, to be reconvened at 9:30 a. m., Friday, June 8, 1956,
there being present at the time of taking the recess Representatives
JMoulder, Frazier, and Scherer.)
81594— SO—pt. 3-
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA— PART 3
saturday, june 2, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
St. Louis, Mo,
EXECUTIVE SESSION *
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities mefc
at 10:30 a. m., pm'suant to call, in room 1100, the Sheraton-JefFersoa
Hotel, St. Louis, Mo., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder (chairman of the
subcommittee) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Morgan M. Moulder,
of Missouri, and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; George
C. Williams and Raymond T. Collins, investigators.
Mr. Moulder. Have the record show that tliis subcommittee of
the Committee on Un-American Activities, consisting of James E.
Frazier, Jr., Gordon H. Scherer, and myself, Morgan M. Moulder, as
chairman, acting pursuant to the provisions of Public Law 601 of the
Congress of the United States, has been appointed by the chairman
of the full committee, there being now present Mr. Scherer and myself
constituting a quorum.
The committee will come to order and proceed with the hearing of
the witnesses. This subcommittee met and decided to hear the
following named witnesses in executive session: Joseph Schoemehl,
Loyal Hammack, and George V. L. Hardy.
\\ill you be sworn, Mr. Schoemehl?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. Schoemehl. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH JOHN SCHOEMEHL
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your full name, please, sir?
Mr. Schoemehl. Joseph John Schoemehl.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your age, Mr. Schoemehl?
Mr, Schoemehl. Seventy-three.
Mr. Tavenner. W^here were you born?
Mr. Schoemehl. St. Louis, Mo.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in St. Louis?
Mr. Schoemehl. I do.
' Executive testimony ordered released by the committee August 24, 1956.
4949
4950 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee briefly what your
educational training has been, that is yoiu" formal educational training?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Formal education, I just about finished the
seventh grade.
Mr. Tavenner. What has been yom- principal employment since
1932?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I was in the decorating business in 1932. And
dm'ing the war years I was a guard at the ordnance depot at the motor
pool. And then from about — well, for 5 years I was at Famous-Barr,
Spring Avenue warehouse, night watchman.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Schoemelil, have you at any time been a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I joined the party in 1932, late fall, and was an
active member until about 1938 the spring of 1938, when I had a
paralytic stroke and was out of commission for a while, but maintained
contact at all times with the party members. And then I reentered
the party in about 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain a member of the party
after that?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I was never expelled, although I was called before
the review commission. But there was never a verdict rendered as to
expulsion or anything else. I never heard any more about it.
Mr. Tavenner. \Vhen were you called before the review commission
of the Communist Party?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. About in 1950 or 1951. I am not sure of tlie year
at this moment.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend Communist Party meetings after
that date?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I did not.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
you were approached at any time during your Communist Party
membership by representatives of the Federal Bureau of Investi-
gation for the purpose of obtaining your assistance in advising the
Government as to the activities of the Communist Party in this
area?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. It was in about 1943. It was then that I rejoined
the party. Well, it was at that time the Communist Political Asso-
ciation and I rejoined the CPA at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Off the record a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. I understand you have stated it was in 1943 that
the Federal Bureau of Investigation contacted you?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL, Ycs.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you secure readmission into the Communist
Party immediately or did some time elapse after 1943 before you
became an actual member again?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Somc time elapsed after that because I had to
have someone approach me to get me back into it. I had to reestab-
lish contacts that I had with different members in order to get them
into the notion to ask me to come back into the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. According to your best recollection, how long was
it after 1943 before you became actually and actively affiliated with
the Communist Party again?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. It was when the Communist Political Association
changed over from the Communist Party.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4951
Mr. Tavenner. I mean when did you become actively affiliated
with the Communist Political Association after having been ap-
proached by the FBI?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. That was probably in 1944. It was some time
after I had been contacted by the Bureau.
Mr. Tavenner. From 1944 until 1950 did you advise the Federal
Bureau of Investigation of the knowledge you obtained regarding
Communist Party activities in this area?
Mr. Schoemehl. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Will 3^ou tell the committee briefly the circum-
stances under which you became a member of the Communist Party
in 1932?
Mr. Schoemehl. I was at that time connected with a man that —
well, he did all sorts of different investigative work, just a business
associate, really. No contact with that at all at that time. But he
asked me whether I thought I could get into the Communist Party,
that he was interested and several businessmen, local businessmen
here, lawyers, and so on, would like to know what was going on in
there. And I told him that I would try.
And pm-suant to that I went over to the Bar Branch Library where
there was a meeting being held of the International Labor Defense.
And I joined the International Labor Defense and became active with-
in the affairs there. They were defendmg the cases of those arrested
in the July 11 city hall riots in 1932. And tlrrough that I became
active in that capacity attending the trials and was invited to join the
Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Then from the very inception of your membership
in the Communist Party you were acting in an undercover capacity,
and you did not become a member because of any ideological beliefs
on 3^our part?
Mr. Schoemehl. No. I was just strictly there to report on the
activities.
Mr. Tavenner. When you first became a member of the Com-
munist Party what was the chief activity of the Communists, and
their principal objective in this area?
Mr. Schoemehl. At the time practically the sole objective was to
get relief for the people who were in need, in the way of food, shelter,
clothing.
Mr. Tavenner, Was that work done by the Communist Party
utilized for the purpose of recruiting new members into the Communist
Party?
Air. Schoemehl. Whenever they found someone that was really
active and seemed to be sincere they got them into the party. If they
were working in any of the other organizations, you know, that is with
the Unemployed Council, the International Labor Defense, the League
of Struggle for Negro Rights and the Workers' Ex-Servicemen's League
and a number of groups of that sort that they set up — anyone that
was active in that Ime that they thought they might get into the party,
they would recruit into the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the Communist Party control the activities
of those organizations to which you referred?
Mr. Schoemehl. They did. They set up the leadership of it in
all cases.
4952 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. I understood you to say that you became inactive
in 1938 due to an illness.
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Then it was in 1943 when you were requested by
the Federal Bureau of Investigation to again become active in the
Communist Party, if you could.
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien you became active in the Communist Party
as you have described, were you assigned to any particular group of
the Communist Party, or cell of the Communist Part}"?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Ycs. At that time they had clubs. I was as-
signed to the Roosevelt Club on the South Side.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remaiu affiliated with that par-
ticular club of the Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. Until the Communist Party was reconstituted,
and then I was assigned to work with the South Side, one of the groups
on the South Side. They still called them clubs at that time.
Mr. Tavenner, Was there any course of training prescribed about
the time of the reconstitution of the Communist Party designed to
indoctrinate, or more fully indoctrinate the Communist Party members
in Marxist ideology?
Mr. Schoemehl. There was. There was a Basic Training Institute
that was organized and I was secretar}^ of it. And the object was to
take these nev/ members that were in the Communist Political Associa-
tion who had no political training whatever — in fact, the majority of
them were in that category, because during the thirties they hadn't
done any ideological work at all excepting just the work the}^ were
doing in the way of relief. That was tJ^eir main object during that
period. And while there had been pamphlets sold at all times, there
was no real studying periods or anything. And this Basic Training
Institute was organized to indoctrinate the members, teach them what
communism really means.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the approximate date of the organiza-
tion of that Basic Training Institute? That is, about what year was it?
Mr. Schoemehl. It was along about in 1946 or 1947.
Mr. Tavenner. How many members of the Communist Party at
that time, as far as you know, attended that institute?
Mr. Schoemehl. Well, about 50 would be in attendance at most of
the sessions.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were the sessions held?
Mr. Schoemehl. At 1041a North Grand Avenue, in the Communist
Party headquarters.
Mr. Tavenner. Were they day or night sessions?
Mr. Schoemehl. Well they vvere mostly night sessions, although
there v. ere some day sessions held also on Sundays.
Mr. Tavenner. Over how long a period of time did this institute
hold its sessions?
Mr. Schoemehl. For a couple or 3 weeks.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, how this
course of instruction was conducted?
Mr. Schoemehl. Well, there were certain books of Marx, Lenin,
Stalin, that were taken, you know, and parts were read there. And,
of course, the students were required to memorize, like any other class
would be, to see if they understood what the pm'pose was.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4953
Mr. Moulder. Would the}^ have discussions?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Yes; there were discussions, question-and-answer
periods.
Mr. Moulder. Would they be sometimes referred to as discussion
groups?
Mr. Schoemehl, They would be separate groups. Separate panels
would be organized to discuss a certain subject.
Mr. Tavenner. How was the instruction directed?
Mr. Schoemehl. The lecturer, whoever the speaker was at that
occasion, would ask questions of the group, and would have them ask
questions in order to clarify points that they didn't understand.
Mr. Tavenner. There were instructors, then, as I understand it?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes; there were instructors.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell us who the instructors were, or at
least name all that j^ou can now recall?
Mr. Schoemehl. Annie Yasgur was one of them. She was instruct-
ing the group that I was in. And different lecturers were Ralph
Shaw ■
Mr. Tavenner. In giving us the names of these individuals, will
you give what descriptive information you can regarding them; that
is, whether they held any positions in the Communist Party, or any
other information that you can recall which would more fully identify
them?
Mr. Schoemehl. Ralph Shaw. He was district organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. Of the Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. Of the Communist Party.
Mr. Moulder. What would the district be? What area would the
district include?
Mr. Schoemehl. That was district 21.
Mr. Moulder. Do you know what territory that comprised?
Mr. Schoemehl. That covered the surrounding territory here in
Missouri and part of Illinois. And as far as I know, that was about it.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether Arkansas was also included
in the district at one time?
Mr. Schoemehl. At one time it was in. But whether it was at that
particular time or not, they fluctuated and changed from time to time.
Part of the time we were under the jurisdiction of Chicago, a subdis-
trict of Chicago.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated, Mr. Shaw, was district organizer of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes.
And his wife. I can't recall her first name right now.
Mr. Williams. Sarah?
Mr. Schoemehl. Sarah was one of the instructors.
Ray Koch.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was that last name?
Mr. Williams. Koch. K-o-c-h.
Mr. Schoemehl. K-o-c-h. Bob Manewitz.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Koch and Manewitz hold any positions in the
Cpmmunist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. They were in the top brackets. They held various
positions. It was rather loosely arranged. They would function as
one of the top functionaries and then it would be something else again.
There were no regular elections or anything of that kind that you could
4954 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
really say that any individual outside of the district organizer was a
certain official.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Mane^\^tz one of the defendants convicted in
the Smith Act case in 1954?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Yes, he was.
Al Murphy — ^he was in the leadership of the Negro sections.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he also one of the defendants convicted in the
Smith Act case?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes. He was also one of the defendants.
At the time of that school, though, I think Ralph Shaw was not
the district organizer here. It was Jim Forrest.
Mr. Tavenner. James Forrest was also one of the defendants?
Mr. Schoemehl. He was one of the defendants.
Mr. Tavenner. And convicted in the Smith Act trials?
Mr. Schoemehl. And convicted. And so was his wife. She also
took a prominent part in the organization.
Mr. Tavenner. Do j^ou recall her name?
Mr. Schoemehl. Dorothy.
Douglas MacLeod lectm*ed at one of those affairs.
Mr. Tavenner. Is he an attorney here in the city of St. Louis?
Mr. Schoemehl. He is an attornej^, 3^es, sir.
Then there were Clara Mae Perkins, and her husband
Mr. Williams. Haven Perkins.
Mr. Schoemehl. Haven. They also lectured at this Basic Training
Institute.
Mr. Williams. Miss Helen Musiel?
Mr. Schoemehl. Helen Musiel also spoke at it.
Mr. Williams. Anne (Ann) Yasgur?
Mr. Schoemehl. I already mentioned Anne (Ann) Yasgur.
I was trying to think of some of the others, now. I hadn't thought
of Haven and Mae Perkins before, either.
Mr. Williams. What about Marcella Osor?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes; Marcella Oser.
Mr. Williams. And Nathan?
Mr. Schoemehl. And Nathan Oser. They also lectured on some
subjects.
I think that is about all that I can remember of them now.
M]-. Tavenner. Was this institute or school for members of the
Communist Party only?
Air. Schoemehl. It was.
Mr. Tavenner. Were persons not members of the Communist
Party permitted to attend this institute?
Mr. Schoemehl. To the best of my knowledge there was none but
party members permitted, because I knew practically all of those
and all of the students, and I had met all of them at party meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. Were these persons w ho acted in a teaching capac-
ity as instructors or lecturers members of the Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. All of them were.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there included in the instruction given to this
group a Communist plan or program to set up an independent unit
of government in an area in the south of this country?
Mr. Schoemehl. WeU, Murphy at all times — I don't know
whether it was particularly in this institute or not — but at aU times
there was one point that he would stress, and that was that the black
COIVIJMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4955
belt, so-called, of the South should be a separate entity and have its
own government. In other words, self-determination.
Mr. Moulder. Was he colored?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. He was colored.
Mr. Moulder. Tliis is off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. Dming tJie course of the conduct of this school,
did s})eakers or lectui'ers from New York or other areas of the Unitea
States take part in the meetings?
Mr. ScHOEMBHL. Nouc that I recall. Usually when outside visitors
came tliey had special meetings for them. But there was none at tlie
school here that 1 recall offhand, unless we woidd consider Shaw who
had formerly been district organizer and .happened to be hero for one
of these lectures.
Mr. Tavenner. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. wSchoemehl, you stated that Clara Mae Perkins
and Haven Perkins assisted in the conduct of this school. Can you
at this point tell us of any other Communist Party activity in which
they engaged?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. No; I can't, because many of those things were
kept more or less separate. Unless you happened to be working with
them you didn't know wJ)at work they were doing. They would come
in with a report on certain matters, but I don't know just exactly
what they were detailed to do.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend Communist Party meetings with
Clara Mae Perkins and Haven Perkins subsequent to the conduct of
this school?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I can't remember any special time or meeting
because several of those cases arc pretty far back. And you would
meet them at meetings, but of course, outside of my reports, I wouldn't
remember. That is, to make a positive statement as to a time and
place I couldn't do it.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have occasion, after the conduct of this
school, to attend Communist Party meetings with Douglas MacLeod?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I can't remember any certain specific time, be-
cause I met them— It was just the usual thing, you know. There
was nothing unusual about meeting them. And at this time it
wouldn't register with me when I saw them after that because I met
them from time to time on the streets and otherwise. It would be
hard for me to say because it has been over 5 years since I was in
much of the activities here.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Douglas MacLeod attend any meetings of the
Communist Party at which you were present?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. At general membership meetings, yes.
A^Ir. ScHERER. Were those general membership meetings closed
Communist Party meetings?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. They were closed meetings, Communist Party
meetings. Only Communist Party members were supposed to be
there.
Mr. ScHERER. The fact is that only Communist Party members
were permitted to be at those meetings.
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Yes.
4956 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. ScHERER. Was much emphasis placed on this creation of a
separate state or separate government for the Negroes in the South?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. It was always mentioned that it should be done.
But there was never anything said about how it was going to be done
and who was going to do it.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you ever see any of the maps or diagrams that
had been prepared by the Communist Party showing just where this
colored state was to be set up in the South?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. No, sir; I did not. They merely mentioned the
counties and the States in which they were located, but I never did
see a map or any diagram of it.
Mr. ScHERER. But they did go so far as to mention the counties
and the States in which this separate state was to be set up?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. And those States were in the South, were they not?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. They M^ere in the South. They mentioned the
population by white and colored showing tlie predominance of the
Negro in the area.
Mr. ScHERER. You mean in those areas you were to have a colored
state?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Ycs.
Mr. ScHERER. Did they gain many converts to that idea of a
separate colored state among the colored members of the Communist
Party?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Well, they all seemed to be in favor of it, but I
don't know that they ever made any real point about doing anything
about it.
Mr. ScHERER. Were there some Negroes in the Communist Party
that objected to this idea of the creation of a separate state for
colored?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I never heard of one of them hardy enough to
try it, to object to it. And even outside of that, I never heard any
discussions of any kind that they disapproved of it.
Mr. ScHERER. There were colored members of the Communist
Party in your groups, were there not?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Ycs. In fact, I was sent to the North Side
because tliey had a group up there composed entirely of Negroes, and
they couldn't get any white comrades up there. They couldn't make
any Communists out of any of the white folks in that neighborhood.
So I was one of those assigned to become a member of that group.
They had a Jim Crow group up there, and of course that wouldn't
do among Communists. They always preserved the fact of the
party. There had to be colored and white.
Mr. ScHERER. But actually, integration didn't even work among
the rank and file of the Communist Party in this particular area, then?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Not in certain sections of it.
Mr. ScHERER. There was forced integration then.
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Ycs.
Mr. ScHERER. By the leadership of the Communist Party.
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Yes, but it was in reverse here. They had to force
the white folks into the Negro units.
Mr. ScHERER. Did the colored object to the white folks?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Oh, no, they didn't object.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4957
Mr. ScHERER. It was the fact that the white Communists didn't
want to associate with the colored Communists, is that it?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Well, there weren't any living in that particular
locality. And I moved across the demarcation line, Market Street,
between north and south St. Louis so I happened to be on the North
Side then and I was assigned to join that unit up there. I was assigned
to that unit.
Mr. Williams. Who headed that unit, Mr. Schoemehl?
Mr. Schoemehl. Richard Stanford.
Mr. Williams. Approximately what year was that?
Mr. Schoemehl. That was along about in 1947 or 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated that Douglas MacLeod attended
general membership meetings of the Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell us over what period of time, as nearly
as you can recall, that he attended such meetings?
Mr. Schoemehl. Up until about 1950. After that I did not see
him very often at party meetings.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know whether he was a member of the
Communist Party at the time you left the party, or were expelled
from the party, or stopped your activities in the party?
Mr. Schoemehl. Up to that time I saw him at those meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. Up to 1950?
Mr. Schoemehl. That is, not at every meeting, of course, but
whenever there was one of those meetings he would be apt to be there.
Mr. Scherer. Have you seem him since?
Mr. Schoemehl. I meet him on the street quite often.
Mr. Scherer. Do you laiow whether he is a member of the Com-
munist Party today?
Mr. Schoemehl. That, I couldn't say.
Mr. Scherer. Have you had any conversations with him since 1950
with reference to membership in the party?
Mr. Schoemehl. No, I have not, because I was under a cloud at
that time. And of course they avoided meeting me or talking to me,
just to say "Howdy" as they passed and that was all.
Mr. Scherer. You came under a cloud because they suspected you
were an agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Is that the
reason?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Did your hearing before the review commission re-
sult by reason of the fact that you were suspected of being an agent
for the FBI?
Mr. Schoemehl. Well, they didn't know whom I was reporting to
but they suspected that I was giving information to someone. They
didn't charge me Avith it, exactly.
Mr. Scherer. But they did hold a hearing?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes.
Mr. Schoemehl. It hinged on some notes I had made at a general
membership meeting. And it was customary at that time because
right in front of me a girl sat there and she was taking do^vn practically
everj^thing in shorthand. But in m}^ notes I had — Ray Koch made a
statement and quoted a certain publication — it was a book. He
mentioned the author. And I questioned the correctness of that state-
ment, that is in my mind, and made a note of it. And on that they
4958 COIMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
hinged the point t}iat I must be giving information to someone because
otherwise I wouldn't have made a note about that particular item.
I also mentioned on that note "The Big I had made a certain re-
port.'' And Helen Musiel wanted to know who the Big I was. Well
I refused to tell her.
Mr. ScHERER. Wlio was the Big I, if you recall?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I Can't remember the woman's name. She was
active in, I tJiink it was, the Longshoremen's Union. That is she was
working in that office.
Mr. ScHERER. She was a Communist?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. She was.
Mr. ScHERER. vShe made what kind of a report?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. She was just telling how — let's see, how do they
state that now? — self criticism, which of course could be taken as an
individual or as the party activities. And sl^e was criticizing the party
by telling what a good worker she was. She didn't criticize the party
exactly, but she was referring to her work for the party. And that
was why I called her the Big I. She was giving herself a pat on the
back.
Mr. Tavenner. Having gone this far with matters leading up to
your being called before the review commission, will you continue,
please, and tell the committee just what occmTed?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. About in December, as a rule, every year they
would have a, well, sort of a questionnaire. You would be asked to
tell about where you worked and how much you made, because you
are supposed to pay 10 percent of your salary as dues, and questions
of that sort. What work you had done for the party during the past
year. I forget what they called that. At any rate, on that was based
whether or not you would receive your party card for the following
year. But sometimes they would call 3''ou in any time during the
year. And they called me in along about in May and asked me those
questions.
Mr. Moulder. Can you recall who called you in?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Helen Musiel phoned me. And Jim Forrest,
Romey Hudson and Helen Musiel were the ones who questioned me.
Ray Koch had been the head of the review commission up to the last
that I heard. But he was in Chicago then and had been transferred
to Chicago, or at least had gone to Chicago. And after the questions
and up to almost the very last minute nothing was said about this
being a review commission. But then after these notes had been
brought out, then Jim Forrest advised me that this was a session of
the review commission and they would render thou- decision.
Mr. Moulder. Can you give us more identification of Helen
Musiel, her occupation and so forth?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. She was a packinghouse worker. And she was
very active in the party activities when I fii"st joined the Communist
Political Association. Siie was more or less in charge, she and Sarah
KHing — Sarah Shaw, pardon me.
Mr. Moulder. Was Helen Musiel married or was that her maiden
name?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. She was single.
Mr. Moulder. Do you know where she came from?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I think she was a local, born in St. Louis here, to
the best of my knowledge. I am not positive of that, but her family
were here. She had a sister here who was married.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4959
Mr. Moulder. Can you teli us the family name?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I don't know what her name was. Just JNIusiel
was the only one that I knew as her family name.
Mr. ScHERER. Was the review commission a sort of a disciplinary
board?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. It was.
Mr. Tavenner. Was any decision from that review commission
transmitted to you?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. It was not. I wrote Forrest two letters, and one
to Helen Musiel, but I never received a reply to any of them.
Mr. ScHERER. Letters asking- what the decision had been?
Air. ScKOEMEHL. What the decision was. I wanted to know what
the decision was.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you continue in your Communist Party activi-
ties after that time?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I did not, because I had been sort of isolated for
about 2 years before this. They had evidently become suspicious and
assigned me to a unit that was inactive. In fact the only meetings
I — 1 would attend meetings there but it was merely Kichard Stanford
and his wife and I. None of the other members of that unit attended
meeting's. I didn't even know who the other members were supposed
to be.
Mr. Tavenner. I would like now to go back to an earlier period in
your membership. You have told us about the Basic Training In-
stitute. Was there any other course of training made available to
members of the Communist Party in this area?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Well, they had the Joseph Weydemeyer School of
Social Science. But it was not confined strictly to party members.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, it operated on about the same
principle as the Jefferson School of Social Science in New York?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Yes, sir. They used the same textbooks that
they used there.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend this school?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell us the year in which that occurred?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Just off hand I can't remember. There were
several sessions of it, that is in several years there. About two and
a half years that I remember.
Mr. Tavenner. ^Vho were the instructors, as far as you can iiow
recall?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. There was Jim Forrest, Dorothy Forrest, Ray
Koch — Nathan Oser was at one of those. He was really not an
instructor. He merely appeared at one of the sessions — Ai Murphy,
Bob Manewitz.
Mr. Tavenner. Are those all that you can now recall?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Tliose are the only ones I can recall offhand.
Mr. Moulder. WTiere were the sessions of the classes held of the
Weydeme3^er School?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. At the Communist Party headquarters, 1041a
North Grand Avenue. You see, each of these mstructors had a
separate class, and I did not attend all of the classes. That is I
picked out certain classes that I attended.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe each of those named by you as in-
structors in the Joseph Weydemeyer Scliool were also instructors in
the Basic Traming Institute?
4960 COACVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Most of them were.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there any instructor in the Joseph Weyde-
meyer school, as far as you can remember, not a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. To the best of my knowledge there was none but
Communist Party members that I know, off hand.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the main purpose of this school?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. It was similar to the Basic Training Institute in
that it took certain subjects that were gone into in more detail than
they had been in the institute. It was a sort of higher group about
the same as we would say a high school after finishing grammar
school.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask this: Can you recall the names of any
other persons who attended that school at the same time you attended
it?
Mr. Tavenner. Off the record just a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Moulder. You say you couldn't give the year, but you say
the school extended over a period of 2 years or 2% years.
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Moulder. Could 3'ou give us approximately the period covered
by the 2K years?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. There was a fall session and a spring session.
Mr. Moulder. Of approximately what years?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. As nearly as I can figure it, it was along about in
1947.
Mr. Williams. I think it is 1949, Mr. Schoemehl.
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Sir?
Mr. Williams. I think it was around 1949.
Mr. Schoemehl. It may have been as late as that. That is part of
my trouble.
Mr. Moulder. It was 1947, 1948, or 1949?
Mr. Schoemehl. Somewhere along there; yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Schoemehl, are you acquainted with a person
by the name of Dr. Sol Londe?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known by you to be a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. He was.
Mr. Tavenner. On what do you base your statement that he was
a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. When I was the unit organizer of a unit on the
South Side, Dr. Londe and the woman whom he married later were
assigned to my unit to attend a couple of meetings in order to learn
how to conduct a meeting of the Communist Party. This was done
at the orders of the district organizer at that time. He informed me
that Dr. Londe and his fiancee were going to set up a professional unit
of the Communist Party, membership to be limited entirely to profes-
sional people, and that Dr. Londe was to be the unit organizer of that
unit. They attended two meetings, to my knowledge — it may have
been three — at which they sat in at the meetings and asked me about
different matters as to how things were being conducted.
Mr. Tavenner. You did not at any time attend a meeting of the
professional group?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4961
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I did not. I don't know who the membership
was, or whether it consisted of doctors and lawyers or other profes-
sional people. I don't know anything further about it, except that
he was designated to set up such a group.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Dr. Londe, while attending your meetings,
indicate to you in any manner that he had been assigned for that
particular type of work?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Ycs. When he came to the meeting that night
he mtroduced himself and had credentials there from the district
organizer instructing me to permit him to attend the meetings. No
outsider was permitted to attend a unit meeting unless he was known
as an official of the Communist Party. And that was done in order
that I would permit him to sit in at the meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the year in which that occurred?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. That occurred sometime prior to 1938.
Mr. Tavenner. That was during the period of your first activity?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. My first activity, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. In the Communist Party.
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Bccausc I was never unit organizer in the party
after I rejoined it.
Mr. Tavenner. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. Back on the record just a minute.
May I ask that the investigator, Mr. George Williams, conduct the
rest of the examination?
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Williams.
Mr. Williams. While you were a member of the Communist Party
did you ever have occasion to know Zollie, Z-o-l-l-i-e, Carpenter as a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I did.
Mr. Williams. Under what circumstances did you know him to be
a member?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I met him at party meetinirs.
Mr. Williams. In what period of time was this?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Aloug about 1948 or 1949.
Mr. Williams. Do you recall what group or club Carpenter was
assigned to?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I dou't know.
Mr. Williams. \^liere were these Communist Party meetings
when you met with him?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. At the party headquarters, 1041a North Grand.
Mr. Williams. They were closed Communist Party meetings?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. They were closed party meetings.
Mr. Williams. Did you know where Carpenter worked?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. No ; I do not.
Mr. Moulder. How many people would usually attend the Com-
munist Party meetings at the headquarters on Grand Avenue?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. The attendance would fluctuate. But ordinarily
there would be up to as many as a hundred or 12-5 people there. They
came from all over the city.
Mr. Williams. Did you ever have occasion to meet a Mr. John
Day — D-a-y?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Ycs.
4962 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Williams. Did you know D&y to be a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I did.
Mr. Williams. Wliat were the circumstances under which you
knew Da}^ to be a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. He m as assigned at one time to work among the
farmers.
Mr. Williams. Do you recall approximately when that was?
Mr. Schoemehl. It was in that period after the party w^as recon-
stituted.
Mr. Williams. After 1945?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes.
Mr. Williams. Did Day ever hold any othcial position with the
Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. Outside of that about being sent out to organize
the farmers, I don't remember that he had any particular title. On
those thing's, as I mentioned before, there was no formality about it.
Mr. Williams. Do you recall whether or not he was ever on the
State committee of the Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. I believe he was. During that period he was on
the State committee.
Mr. Williams. Do you know a jMr. Louis England, K-n-g-1-a-n-d
as a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes.
Mr. Williams. How did you happen to know Mr. England?
Mr. Schoemehl. I met him at party meetings.
Mr. Williams. Was he a resident of St. Louis?
Mr. Schoemehl. He was at that time. And then he moved out
near Sullivan, Mo., on a farm.
Mr. Williams. Did vou ever have occasion to know a Mr. Harold
Hall?
Mr. Schoemehl. I did.
Mr. Williams. Did you know him as a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes, su'. He was a member.
Mr. Williams. A^liat were the cu'cumstances under which you
knew him to be a member of the Conununist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. I met him at several party meetings. And on
one occasion a group had been called together for some special pur-
pose — I don't remember the purpose just off hand — and he was as-
signed to that gTOiip also. That was party members only who were
assigned to do some certain work.
Mr. Williams. Do you recall v/hat this work was?
Mr. Schoemehl. I don't recall offhand.
Mr. Williams. \^Qiat was the approximate period of time of that?
Mr. Schoemehl. It was in the period after 1945 there.
Air. Williams. Do a^ou know what type of work Air. Hall was
engaged in?
Air. Schoemehl. I think he was a railroad Vv^orker.
Air. Williams. Did you know a Roger Heft'uer, H-e-f-f-n-e-r?
Air. Schoemehl. Yes, sir.
Air. Williams. Did you know him to be a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Air. Schoemehl. I do.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4963
Mr. Williams. Did you meet witli Mr. Heffner in closed Com-
munist Party meetings?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I did.
Mr. Williams. When, approximately?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. In the period after 1945.
Mr. Williams. Did you have occasion to meet Mr. Louis Kimmel,
K-i-m-m-e-1, as a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I did.
Mr. Williams. "VMien was that?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. During that period from 1945 on.
Mr. Williams. Did you meet in closed Communist Party meetings
with Mr. Kimmel?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I did.
Mr. Moulder. Wliat was his business or occupation?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Su"?
Mr. Moulder. What vras his business or occupation?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I doii't know. He was always with Bill Sentner.
One of those convicted in the trial in 1954.
Mr. Williams. Mr. Sentner v/as with the United Electrical Work-
ers?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. He was with the electrical workers, yes. I don't
know whether Lou Kimmel was an electrical worker or not.
Mr. Williams. Did you ever liave occasion to meet a William
Massingale?
Mr. Sf:HOEMEHL. I did.
Air. Williams. You know him os a member of the Conmiunist
Party?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I kucw him as a member of thic Communist Party.
Mr. Williams. In approximately what period of time?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Aloug in 1945 and up. I am not quite sure
whether I met him before tbat time or not. I liad heard of him, but I
don't remember meeting him before then. ^'\^ien I was assigned to
the North Side unit there, that was when I came in contact with
Massingale.
Mr. Williams. "Wlien was that?
A[r. ScHOEMEHL. That was about in 1946 or somewhere in there.
Mr. Moulder. "\M)at did he do?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. He was an elevator operator at the time that I
fij-st met him.
Mr. Williams. Did Massingale ever run for any pu})lic ofiice here
in St. Louis?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. He ran for vStat(> representative.
Mr. Williams. Was he elected?
Mr. Schoemehl. He was elected in the 19th District. He served
in the State Legislature during that period.
Mr. Williams. Do you recall if tlse Communist Party backed his
campaign, or in any way planned the strategy of his campaign for
public office?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes. The Communist Party woj-e full strength
behind him. They threw all of their forces up into that territory to
work for Massingale to elect him.
Mr. Williams. To jour knowledge, was he a member of the Com-
munist Party when he was elected to the State legislature?
Mr. Schoemehl. He was.
81594— 56— pt. 3 6
4964 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Williams. Did you ever have an occasion to meet Bruce
Miller?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I did.
Mr, Williams. As a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I did.
Mr. Williams. Do you recall to what group Miller was assigned in
the Communist Party?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. He was assigned to the group on the South Side.
I attended Communist Party meetings at his home.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask, how many persons attended such meet-
ings approximately?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Weil, generally anywhere from 5 to 10.
Mr. Williams. Do you recall any other persons who attended meet-
ings at Miller's home?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Helen Musiel was there, and Miller's wife.
Mr. Williams. Is that Laura Miller?
Mr. Schoemehl. Laura. Just offhand I couldn't remember ex-
actly who the others were.
Mr. Williams. To your knowledge was Bruce Miller an officer in
the South Side Club of the Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Williams. Do 3^ou know what Mr. Miller's occupation was?
Mr. Schoemehl. Truckdriver.
Mr. Williams. Did you ever have an occasion to meet a James
Moore, a colored person?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes. No, not colored; white. James Moore.
Mr. Williams. There are two James Moores. One is James Ted
Moore, a white person.
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes.
Mr. Williams. And James Moore, a colored person.
Mr. Schoemehl. No; I didn't meet the colored person.
Mr, Williams. But you knew James Ted Moore?
Mr. Schoemehl. James Moore, the white man, James Ted
Moore, yes.
Mr. Williams. When did you know James Ted Moore to be a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. I knew James Ted Moore about in 1935-36.
In fact, it was James Ted Moore that sponsored my return to the
Communist Party at the time of the Communist Political Association.
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder left the room at this point.)
Mr. Williams. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Williams. Did you ever know a Tom Schmidt to be a member
of the Communist Party?
Mr. Schoemehl. I did.
Mr. Williams. How recently did you know Schmidt to be a
member?
Mr. Schoemehl. During the time that Massingale was running for
office.
Mr. Williams. Wliich would be 1946?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes.
Mr. Williams. Did you meet m closed Communist Party meetings
with Tom Schmidt?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes, I did.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4965
Mr. Williams. Was that in 194G?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Aloiig about that time.
Mr. Williams. Were those meetmgs held at Communist Party
headquarters?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. They were.
Mr. Williams. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Williams. Did j-ou ever have occasion to meet ElHott Wax-
man, W-a-x-m-a-n , as a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I did.
Mr. Williams. Under what circumstances did you meet Waxman?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I met him several times at Communist Party
meetings. And he was the Daily Worker agent. He handled the
subscription drives for the Daily Worker.
Mr. Williams. When was the last time you met in a closed Com-
munist Party meeting with Elliott Waxm.an?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Well, it was not exactly a closed party meeting.
It was a Daily Worker drive and they were seeldng subscriptions,
that is, those that had expired.
Mine had expired, and I was under a cloud at the time. But I
was invited to a meeting at the basement of Stanford's home on St.
Louis Avenue. Stanford was not present at the meeting.
Mr. Williams. Do you recall the approximate time of this meeting?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. I think it was about in 1952.
Mr. Williams. 1951 or 1952?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. 1951 or 1952.
Mr. Williams. Was that subsequent to your meeting with the
review commission?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Yes.
Mr. Williams. How many persons were present at this Daily
Worker drive meeting?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. It was 6 or 7.
Mr. Williams. Were any security measures taken at this meeting?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. There was a couple there, Herman Pearson and
his wife, colored. And after the subscriptions were in, Pearson and
his wife left. And after they had gone Waxman made the remark,
"Well, now we can let our hah' down. We don't have to be leery of
anybody that is here now." But I can't remember who the other
people were there besides that. Pearson was also under a cloud,
apparently under suspicion.
Pearson and his wife Eula, they separated and were later divorced.
Eula moved to Massillon, Ohio, and she was one of those mentioned
in the trial over there.
Mr. William. Had you ever met in closed Communist Party meet-
ings with Waxman prior to this Daily Worker drive?
Mr. ScHOEMEHL. Ycs.
Mr. Williams. When was that, approximately?
Mr. Schoemehl. It was several of these general membership
meetings.
Mr. Williams. Around 1946 and 1947?
Mr. Schoemehl. Yes. And Waxman would be there to talk on the
Dail}^ Worker and the necessity of reading Communist literature.
Mr. Williams. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
4966 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Williams. I believe that is all we have right now.
That concludes the questions I would like to ask the witness.
Air. ScHERER. Air, Schoemehl, the committee wants to thank you
for cooperating with your Government. You are to be commended
for the valuable testimony you have given the committee.
Air. Schoemehl. I did the best I could under the cuxumstances.
It comes a little bit difhcult.
Air. ScHERER. Mr. Schoemehl will be excused for the present.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p. m. Saturday, June 2, 1956, the executive
session of the subcommittee was recessed to be reconvened at 3 p. m.
in room 824, the Sheraton-Jefferson Hotel, there being present at the
time of taking the recess Representative Scherer.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— SATURDAY, JUNE 2, 1956
(Executive Session)
(The subcommittee was reconvened at 3 p. m. in room 824, the
Sheraton-Jefferson Hotel, pursuant to recess. Representatives Mor-
gan AI. Aloulder and Gordon H. Scherer were present.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you swear in the witness?
Air. AIouLDER. Air. Hammack, do you solemnly swear t.lie testi-
mony which you are about to give the subcommittee will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the trutli, so help you God?
Air. Hammack. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LOYAL HAMMACK
Air. Tavenner. "V\liat is your name, sir?
Air. Hammack. Loyal Hammac^k, L-o-y-a-1 H-a-m-m-a-c-k.
Air. Tavenxer. "V\Tien and wi)ere were yoti born, Air. Hammack?
Air. Hammack. I was horn in Benton, lU., 1914.
Air. Tavenner. ^Miere do you now reside?
Air. Hammack. I live at 601 Alarket Street, Ste. Genevieve, AIo.
Air. Tavenner. How long have 3'ou been a resident of Ste. Gene-
vieve?
Air. Hammack. Fifteen years.
Air. Tavenner. WiU you tell the commit t(H', please, \\'l>at your
formal educational training has been?
Air. Hammack. I was a student at Driny College, Springfield, AIo.
Air. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
major emplo3'ment has been since you took u]) \-our residence in Ste.
Genevieve?
Air. Hammack. Railroading and train service imtil about 4 years
ago.
Air. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Commimist Party
at any time dining the past 15 A^ears?
Air. Hammack. Yes, sir. I have been.
Air. Tavex'ner. When did you become a member?
Mr. Hammack. I thudv it was in 1948, but that may not be correct.
It msby have been from 1947. I am hazy on that.
Air. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Air. Hammack. No, sir.
Air. Tavenner. Wliei\ did you sever your coriuection with the
Communist Partv?
COIVIMUNIST ACTIMTIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4967
Mr. Hammack. It was a gradual severance. And I became dis-
associated with them ultimately in, I think, 1951. It is hard for me
to determine that except by events.
Mr. Tavennek. You were a member of the Communist Party,
then, approximately from 1947 to 1951?
Mr. Hammack. Approximately.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, the circum-
stances under which vou became afRliated with the Communist
Party?
Mr. Hammack. I received some pamphlets written by Scott Nearing
called World Events and one evening when my family was gone I
went to a tavern on the outskirts of Ste. Genevieve with a group of
friends. And at this tavern I met a man who talked the same lan-
guage that these pamphlets talked so I gave him some of them.
His name was George Kimmel.
Mr. Tavenket{. K-i-m-m-e-1?
Mr. Hammack. K-i-m-m-e-1.
We discussed world politics in general and shortly after, I would
say in the space of a month, a man ch'ove up to my residence. I was
cutting grass in the front yard. He got out of a Che^Tolet coupe and
came across the street to me and said, "Are you Mr. Hammack?"
And I said, "Yes, su'. Wliat can I do for you?"
He said. "You gave some pamphlets to Mr. Kimmel. I would like
to repay you in kind."
And I said, "A^lio are you?"
And he said, "I am Ray Koch, the secretary of the Communist
Party of the State of Missouri."
I invited him into my home and we sat and talked.
At that time I was — communism was a rather obnoxious name to
me. But to my way of thinking Mr. Koch talked sense. He gave
me at that time a book by the Ked Dean of Canterbury and we
talked a brief time after that and he excused himself.
And I read some of the literature that he had given me and I had
paid for. And shortly after that he came again, if I am not mistaken,
in company with Mr. Kimmel this time, who did not stay at my home
but went to visit friends of his who lived behind us. I tliink at that
time I subscribed to the Woiker.
Mr. Moulder. That is the Daily Worker?
Mr. Hammack. No, just the Worker, the Sunday W^orker. I got
it once a week.
Mr. Tavenner. That is the Sunday edition of the Daily Worker?
Mr. Hammack. That is correct. It is stipulated "The Worker."
I don't know whether it was at this time or not, but I was ap-
proached on paying dues into the Communist Party, which was 75
cents a month for my income bracket. That is the way I got in.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was this person to whom you gave the
pamphlets, George Kimmel, emploj^ed at that time?
Mr. Hammack. I think that he was at that time a discharged
worker of the Mississippi Lime Co. I am not quite sure whether he
was emploj^ed or whether he was a discharged worker in 1947.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what labor union had organized the
Mississippi Lime Co. at that time? That is in 1947?
Mr. Hammack. It was an international of — I think it was the
International Hod Carriers Union, if I am not mistaken, A. F. of L. at
4968 coM]vruNiST activities est st. louis, mo., area
that time. But Mr. Kimmel was a working member of the Mine,
Mill and Smelter Union, and endeavoring to organize the workers at
the Mississippi Lime Co., if my dates are correct on that.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether the Mine, Mill, and Smelter
Union had organized that plant before 1947 or whether it was some
time after 1947?
Mr. Hammack. It was, I think, after 1947. It was in the process
of being organized when I talked to Mr. Kimmel.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what position Mr. Kimmel held
within the Mine, MDl, and Smelter Union?
Mr. Hammack. At that time it was probably — I don't know, but
probably an unofficial organizer. He was later elected president of
the local union.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what local that was?
Mr. Hammack. I don't know the number of it, no, sii*.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what plants it had organized at the
time that Mr. Kimmel was president of it?
Mr. Hammack. The vertical plant and the rotary plants.
Mr. Moulder. Where located?
Mr. Hammack. In Ste. Genevieve, Mo.
Mr. Moulder, Do you know where Mr. Kimmel was from?
Mr. Hammack. He is from Ste. Genevieve, and still resides there.
Mr. Moulder. Prior to that time, do you Icnow where he came
from?
Mr. Hammack. He was from St. Louis originally, I understand.
Mr. Williams. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. When you spoke of the vertical and rotary plants,
were they plants of a particular corporation?
Mr. Hammack. They were plants of the Mississippi Lime Co.
Mr. Tavenner. Off the record a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether there was an election later,
at which time the Mine, Mill, and Smelter lost the bargaining rights
with Mississippi Lime Co. and another union won the bargaining
rights?
Mr. Hammack. Yes. The Gas Coke and Chemical Workers Union
are now the bargaining agents.
Mr. Tavenner. Is Mr. George Kimmel now affiliated with that
union?
Mr. Hammack. He is no longer an employee of the Mississippi
Lime Co. And I don't believe he is affiliated with the organization
at all anymore.
Mr. Tavenner. After Mine, Mill, and Smelter lost the election at
Mississippi Lime Co., did Mr. George Kimmel become a member
of the Gas Coke and Chemical Workers Union at the Mississippi
Lime plant?
Mr. Hammack. I don't know. He fought them.
Mr. Moulder. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. You have told us the part George Kimmel played
in your first becoming a member of the Communist Party. After
becoming a member of the Communist Party did anything occur
which would serve as a basis of your knowing George Kimmel was
himself a member of the Communist Party?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4969
Mr. Hammack. Frankly, Mr. Kimmel probably never told me in so
many words that he was a Communist. J probably never told him in
so many words that I was. But on several occasions I met with him
and Mr. Koch, either on the street or in my home, and discussed
Communist tactics. I would assume that he would have no business
discussing Communist tactics and policies unless he were a Communist.
On another occasion I was supposed to pay 75 cents a month dues,
whicli I sometimes neglected to do. That was supposed to be sent to
St. Louis to Mr. Ra}^ Koch, or the Communist headquarters on, I
think, Grand Avenue. I was delinquent 2 months' dues one time and
I met Mr. Kimmel downtown, I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. In what place?
Mr. Hammack. In Ste. Genevieve. And I started talking with him.
We were on good terms at that time. And I mentioned in passing
that I had failed to pay my dues and wondered if he was going to
see Mr. Koch in the near future. And he said, yes, he was. So I gave
him a dollar and a half to pay 2 months' dues in arrears.
Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment. Did you tell Mr. Kim.mxel that
those were Communist Party dues?
Mr. Hammack. Yes, sir. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Proceed, please.
Mr. PIammack. In that conversation Mr. Kimmel told me that he
had not paid his dues for some time but that he was in organization
work for Aline, Mill, and Smelter I believe at Herculaneum, Mo., and
that work done for the organij^ation of Mine, Mill, a,nd Smelter would
serve in lieu of paying dues. Those were not his exact words, but his
meaning.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, by reason of the type of work
which he was douig he would not have to continue with the payment
of his Communist Party dues?
Mr. Hammack. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. That is a clear admission of Communist Party
membership.
Mr. Hammack. Apparently so, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall any other occmTcnce in which George
Kimmel indicated his own membership in the Com.munist Party?
Mr. Hammack. We had bull sessions quite frequently in uhich he
told me of Communist literature that he was reading. And we dis-
cussed various problems, local, national, even international.
Mr. Tavenner. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. On one occasion did he introduce you to someone?
Mr. Hammack. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us about that.
Mr. Hammack. After a successful election on the part of Mine,
Mill, and Smelter I met him and a group of Mine, Mill, and Smelter
unionists at a tavern downtown called Toad's place. I was asked to
have a drink, which I did, and George and I were talking at the bar
when another gentleman walked up and Mr. Kimmel introduced him
to me as Air. Linus Wampler. And he said, "It's O. K., Lmus, you
can talk to him. He is one of us."
Mr. Tavenner. You were not a member of the Mine, Mill, and
Smelter Union?
Mr. Hammack. No, sir.
4970 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. But you were a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Hammack. Yes, sir. I assumed, of course, that he was
referring to communism when he mentioned this.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. At the time you were a member of the Connnunist
Party was there an organized group of the Communist Party in
Ste. Genevieve?
Mr. PIammack. I think not.
Mr. Tavenner. Does that mean that you were not assigned to
any particuhir cell?
Mr. Hammack. That is correct. I was not assigned to any cell.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your reason for terminating your
affiliation with the Communist Party?
Mr. Hammack. There was opposition on the part of my family,
after they knew I was associated with the Conmiunist Party, to get
me to change my ways of thinking. Almost from the beginning my
wife was scandalized and abhorred by the idea. My mother and father
talked to me and pleaded with me not to have anything to do with it.
And I suppose I would have given up a long time ago except I was
stubborn. It almost broke up my home. And I think that I love
my wife and family much more than I did the Communist Party.
Mr. Moulder. In addition to that, were you swayed by any of the
activities and their methods of endeavoring to dominate and control,
for one example, the Mine, Mill and Smelter Union?
Mr. Hammack. The ultimate severance from the party occurred
when they actually staged a riot in Ste. Genevieve, when Mine, Mill
and Smelter attempted to mob a group of opposing organizers from
district 50.
Mr. Moulder. Was that mob or action led and inspired hj Com-
munist Party leadership?
Mr. Hammack. I couldn't say that it was anything different than
that, having witnessed it that night and seeing Mr. Kimmel in the
background — although he took no active part in it himself. He
used the Mine, Mill and Smelter members to actually fonn a goon
gang who beat up men and threw rocks and molested and disturbed
the peace of Ste. Genevieve.
Of course, a priest talked to me that same night. Ste. Genevieve is
a very poor place to have a Communist organization with predomi-
nantly Catholics. And tliat swayed me some, although I am not a
Catholic myself. But I think it was just being filled up to t}^e neck
with some of the tactics that they used in the town where I could
actually see that they talked out of both sides of their mouths.
Mr. Moulder. What information do you have that Kinmiel was
the controlling pei'son in charge of the riot and acts of violence that
you referred to?
Mr. Hammack. ActuaUy, I couldn't put my finger on it. Those
are things of course, that you just about have to surmise. But seeing
him present at the mass meeting that v/as broken up would indicate
to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was the instigator of it,
having discussed with him his methods previous to that in regard to
the way he handles peoole. He is a very intelligent, although an
uneducated, man. And he is a very dedicated man to what lie thinks
is right.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no fm-ther questions.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4971
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
(Wliereiipon, at 3:30 p. m. vSatiirday, June 2, 1956, the executive
session of the subcommittee was recessed to be reconvened at 4 :30 p. m.
in room 1100, the Sheraton- Jefferson Hotel, there being present at the
time of taking tlie recess Representatives Moulder and Scherer.)
(The subcommittee was reconvened at 4:30 p. m., June 2, 1956, in
room 1100, the Sheraton-Jefferson Hotel, pursuant to recess. Rep-
resentatives Morgan M. Moidder and Goi'don H. Scherer were
present.)
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Hardy, do you solemnly swear that the testi-
mony you are about to give. will be t'^e truth, the wliole truth and
notlnng but the truth, so hel]) you God?
Mr. Hardy. I do.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE V. L. HARDY
(Executive Session)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your fidl name?
Mr. Hardy. George V. L. Hardy.
Mr. Tavenner. How were 3''ou employed on the 3d day of August
1950 and on the 13th day of August 1952?
Mr. Hardy. As an employment manager, Fisher Body Division,
General Motors Corp., St. Louis plant.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat v.ere 3'our duties with reference to applicants
for employment?
Mr. Hardy. To supervise the applicants, follow up on any reference
inquiries and also to place those desirable in jobs that they were
capable of doing.
Mr. Tavenner. A subpena duces tecum has been issued by this
committee directing the production by you of an application for
employment by James H. Sage, bearing date of August 3, 1950, and
another application bearing date the 13th day of August, 1952, and
also all reference inquiries made by you regarding this applicant.
Do you have the documents called for?
Mr. Hardy. Yes; I have.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a paper bearing date of August 3^
1950, marked for identification only as Hardy Exhibit No. 1, and I
ask you to examine it.
Is that the application of Mr. Sage which you produced under
the subpena?
Mr. Hardy. Yes; it is.
Mr. Tavenner. I offer the document and ask that it be marked
"Hardy Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Moulder. The document shall be marked "Hardy Exhibit
No. 1" and is admitted in evidence.
(The document referred to, marked "Hardy Exhibit No. 1," was
filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Tavenner. Oft' the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Sir. Tavenner. This document appears to be a copy. Will you
explain how it was prepared?
Mr. Hardy. When the investigator came to the plant office and on
going into Mr. Sage's file, it was deemed necessary that a copy be
4972 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
made of this application, and as we had a machine available, that
was done.
Mr. Tavenner. That is a true and accurate copy of the original?
Mr. Hardy. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a paper bearing date August 13, 1952,
marked "Hardy Exhibit No. 2" for identification only. Will you
examine it and state whether or not it is the application of Mr. Sage
produced by you under the subpena?
Mr. Hardy. Yes; it is.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it likewise a true and accurate copy of the
original?
Mr. Hardy. Yes; it is.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a reference inquiry regarding Mr. Sage
bearing date October 29, 1952, marked "Hardy Exhibit No. 3" for
identification only. Would you examine it and state whether it is
the document which you have produced under the subpena?
Mr. Hardy. Yes; it is.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it a true and accurate copy of the original?
Mr. Hardy. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer both of the last mentioned docu-
ments into evidence and ask that they be marked "Hardy Exhibits
Nos. 2 and 3," respectively.
Mr. Moulder. Hardy Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3 admitted in evidence.
(The documents referred to, marked "Hardy Exhibits Nos. 2 and
3," were filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you Hardy Exhibit No. 1 and ask you
whether or not that is the application for employment by James H. Sage?
Air. Hardy. Yes, it is.
Mr. Tavenner. What address did James H. Sage give on his
application?
Mr. Hardy. 5673a Cabanne, St. Louis, Mo.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know who occupied that residence at the
time of the making of that application?
Mr. Hardy. It was reported in the newspaper at that time dttring
some trials, I believe, that were going on, that was William Sentner
and his wife's address also.
Mr. Tavenner. Was William Sentner one of the Smith Act de-
fendants convicted in the recent Smith Act trials in 1954 in St. Louis?
Mr. Hardy. I wouldn't be certain of that. I am not sure.
Mr. Scherer. What does the staff investigation show as to whether
or not William Sentner was convicted in St. Louis as the result of
prosecution under the Smith Act?
Mr. Tavenner. Examination of the record of that trial discloses
that he was convicted.
Mr. Scherer. And that the address given by this witness was
Sentner's address?
Mr. Tavenner. I am not prepared to state that for the record at
this moment.
Mr. Scherer. Although I understand the witness just testified that
during the Smith Act trials the address of one William Sentner was
the address given on this Hardy Exhibit No. 1.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moulder. As reported by the newspapers,
Mr. Hardy. That is right.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4973
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether or not Sage left the employ-
ment of yom- company shortly after being employed in 1950?
Mr. Hardy. As a result of a model change in the early part of
November 1950 all employees, with the exception of a few maintenance
men and those taking inventory, were laid off subject to recall within
a 2- to 3-week period. And, of course, they knew in advance that
they would be coming back at that time.
However, he did not come back at that time and did return — May
I refer to this?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Hardy. Did return on Monday, December 11, 1950.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien was he supposed to return?
Mr. ScHERER. Approximately?
Mr. Hardy. It would have been sometime within the last week in
November. I don't know the exact date.
Mr. Tavenner. But he did not return until what date?
Mr. Hardy. Monday, December 11.
Mr. Tavenner. What action did you take as a result of his failure
to return when notified to return?
Mr. Hardy. In accordance with our contract between our corpora-
tion and the union, a man who is notified to return to work has 3
days in which to do it. And we send out a registered letter to notify
them that they have a certain time to return. And, of course, when
that period is over the}^ are automatically washed off the roll.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he automatically washed off your rolls as a
result of failiu-e to appear?
Mr. Hardy. That is right, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. After you sent him the notice.
Mr, Hardy. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat subsequent action was taken?
Mr. Hardy. Well, as I stated, he came into the office on Monday,
December 11, and requested that his release be reconsidered.
Now, in attempting to establish his whereabouts during that time
he gave me a story as to where he had gone during that period. And
if I may refresh myself, I will read from this.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well, sir.
Let me ask you first, is that a statement prepared by you of the
information which he gave to you at the time he returned on Decem-
ber 11?
Mr. Hardy. Yes, it is.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well, sir.
Mr. Hardy. He stated that he left work on November 3, 1950,
and subsequently left St. Louis, driving to New York, arriving on
November 10, 1950. He took a Curtiss-Reid airplane which stopped
at Montreal and also Gander, Newfoundland, The plane landed in
Paris. And he explained that the airline did not have a permit to
land in London. So he took a local plane to London from Paris on
the same day.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he state his reason for his desu'e to go to
London?
Mr. Hardy. Yes. He gave me the information that the confer-
ence — he was supposed to go to some special conference there, but he
didn't go into any further detail than that.
Mr, Tavenner. Do you recall what conference that was?
4974 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
(There was no response.)
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether it was the Second World
Peace Congress?
Mr. Hardy. Yes, I am quite sui'e that is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well, sir. If you will proceed, please.
Mr. Hardy. On November 11 he returned to Paris where he stayed
until the 14th or 15th, on which date he stated he went to Brussels,
Belgium, and then continued on the 15th to Prague. And he continued
to Warsaw on the 17 th where he said he was unable to continue by
plane. He then went to a port in Poland and boarded a boat which
he later identified as the Batory.
Mr. Scherer. Let me ask you a question. Isn't that the same
boat on which Eisler made his getaway?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, it is.
Mr. Hardy. This boat was due to land at some German port which
he did not name. But he stated it was so heavily laden that it docked
at Southampton fiist and then proceeded to the German port. It
touched at Le Havre and then docked at New York on Friday, Decem-
ber 8. And he tlien flew by TWA aij'line to St. Louis on the same date.
Mr. Tavenner. OfT the record.
(Discussion oft" the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. Reviewing the narrative of his account of his
travels, the period from November 17 to December 8 is unaccounted
for, is it not?
Mr. Hardy. Yes. He told that lie went on this boat, the Batory,
and it docked at Southampton and then proci>ixled to some unknown
German port, it touched at Le Havr(% and then finally docked at
New York.
Mr. Scherer. On what date?
Mr. Hardy. On Friday, December 8.
Mr. Moulder. When Vv-^as he in Warsaw?
Mr. Tavenner. The 17th of November.
Mr. Moulder. Is it shown how long he was in Warsaw?
Mr. Tavenner. No.
Was anything said by Mr. Sage indicating that he traveled into the
Soviet Union?
Mr. Hardy. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Mr. Sage make any statement to you about
the expenses of his trip, as to how they were furnished, or by whom?
Mr. Hardy. No, he didn't.
Mr. Tavenner. At the time that he gave this account of his travels
on December 11, did anyone accompany him to your office, as far as
you can recall?
Mr. Hardy. Not so far as I remember, no. I am quite sure there
was no one else.
Mr. Tavenner, When you sent the registered letter to Mr. Sage
notifying him that he should return within 3 days to work, was there
a return receipt requested?
Mr. Hardy. Yes, there was.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive a receipt?
Mr. Hardy. Off the record a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give your answer as to what you under-
stand?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4975
Mr. Hardy. I have been informed by Mr. Collins that Mr. Simpson
said that he had seen a copy of it, or rather the retm*n receipt signed
by William Sentner, Jr.
Mr. Tavenner. Who is Mr. Simpson?
Mr. Hardy. Air. Simpson is the director of industrial relations for
cm* plant.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you obtain a copy of that receipt and file it
with the reporter as a part of your testimony?
Mr. Hardy, Yes, I will.
Mr. Moulder. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. When this receipt is received by the reporter, I
would like it to be offered in evidence and marked "Hardy Exhibit
No. 4."
Mr. Moulder. The exhibit wiU be so marked and admitted in
evidence.
(The document referred to was so designated as "Hardy Exhibit
No. 4" to be filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Tavenner. Did Mr. Sage present any evidence to you that
would support him in his statement of travel abroad?
Mr. Hardy. Yes; in view of the fact that his travels seemed to be
very unusual, there was some doubt that he had made this trip. So
I requested that he bring in some evidence to support his story. And
he did bring 2 and, I believe, 3 pieces of evidence, 1 of which was his
passport. The second was a menu from the Batory, the ship. And
the third I don't recall. But there was a third to my knowledge.
But I don't recall the detail of it.
Mr. Moulder. Did you examine the passport?
Mr. Hardy. Yes; I did.
Mr. Moulder. Did you examine the stamps showing what ports
he had entered?
Mr. Hardy. I am not too familiar with that. It was turned over
to the FBI and they returned it to us promptly before we gave our
answer to Mr. Sage about his attempt to return to work.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Sage then returned to work at your plant?
Mr. Hardy. Not at that time. vSometime in August of 1952 he did.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he file at that time the second application for
employment which we have identified as Hardy Exhibit No. 2?
Mr. Hardy. That is correct.
Mr. Scherer. Wliat address did he give in his second application?
Mr. Hardy. 3647A North Market, St. Louis, Mo.
Mr. Tavenner. This is a different address from the one given in
the previous application?
Mr. Hardy. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Hardy Exhibit No. 1, the first application, and
also Hardy Exhibit No. 2, the second application, show the educational
training the applicant has had; do they not?
Mr. Hardy. Yes; they have to put that on the application.
Mr. Tavenner. What educational training did the applicant state
he had received?
Mr. Hardy. Through the 12th grade, or high school. No other
training beyond that.
Mr. Tavenner. The second application, Hardy Exhibit No. 2,
shows that the applicant had been employed at H. & H. Machine Co.,
4976 coMivruNiST activities in st. louis, mo., area
4228 Easton Avenue, St, Louis, from January 1951 to May 1951;
does it not?
Mr. Hardy. Yes; it does.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you make any inquiry of that firm regarding
that employment?
Mr. Hardy. Yes; that was the only firm that we got an answer on
two of those that we sent out.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that the document marked "Hardy Exhibit
No. 3" — your employment reference inquiry and the answer to
your inquiry concerning James H. Sage?
Mr. Hardy. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Does it show that he was so employed at H. & H.?
Mr. Hardy. That was verified \vith the firm name, H. & H. Ma-
chine & Motor Parts Co., and it is signed by a Viola, or Visla — I can't
quite make that out — Oberfeld, 0-b-e-r-f-e-l-d. And it is dated
October 29, 1952.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Scherer. I have one question. Off the record first.
(Discussion oft' the record.)
Mr. Scherer. If tliis man Sage had indicated on his application
that he had graduated from a number of colleges and had received
his master's degree from Washington University and that he had
been a professor or an instructor in that college, wouldn't it have
raised some question in your mind as to why he was applying for a
job on the assembly line?
Mr. Hardy. Yes; there would have been a question.
Mr. Scherer. Wouldn't you then, perhaps, have conducted a more
thorough investigation of this man, had you known those facts?
Mr. Hardy. It would depend to some extent on his most recent
work experience. If he had not been teaching recently, and had been
in some work that was more or less comparable to ours, we wouldn't
have questioned that too much. On the other hand, if he had been
teaching up to that point and then was going into assembly work; yes;
it would have raised a very serious question in our minds.
Mr. Scherer. But he did give you three references; did he not?
Mr. Hardy. On both applications he has listed other employment,
not teaching jobs.
Mr. Scherer. And you checked all 3 references but only received
a reply from 1? Is that right?
Mr. Hardy. No. On Hardy Exhibit No. 2 here he has two besides
this previous experience at our plant. We sent reference inquiries
out to 2 of those but only got 1 back. For some reason or another
we didn't send them out on this first application which is Hardy
Exhibit No. 1.
Mr. Scherer. And the one reply that you did get back shows that
his experience with this company which he listed was rather of short
duration ; was it not?
Mr. Hardy. Yes; it was not quite 4 months.
Mr. Scherer. How many months?
Mr. Hardy. Four.
Mr. Scherer. And in what capacity was he employed by that
employer?
Mr. Hardy. The inquiry states crate repaher, which, of course,
would be almost an unskilled job.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4977
Mr. ScHERER. Aiid with that information that he worked 3 months
as a crate repairer, and with the information that he had had a
college education of the type that I have mentioned, together with
employment as a professor, would those facts not have caused you to
make a more careful investigation of this individual?
Mr. Hardy. Well, of course, this other inquuy which was not
returned was for a longer period and was subsequent to the one of
4 months' duration. And the two of them together would represent
a little over a year of unskilled or semiskilled employment. We
probably wouldn't have questioned that too much if we were in need
of employees and under stress and strain of hirmg.
Mr. Moulder. But that isn't verified, the second one. There is no
verification of that. You said you had no response from the second
reference inquiry.
Mr. Hardy. That is right.
Mr. Moulder. So you do not know whether or not he was so
employed.
Mr. Hardy. That is correct.
Mr. Moulder. This is off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. I believe that is all I desire to ask the gentleman.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Hardy is excused from his subpena.
Mr. Tavenner. Thank you very much.
(Whereupon, at 5:30 p. m. Saturday, June 2, 1956, the executive
session of the subcommittee was recessed subject to the call of the
Chair, there being present at the time of taking the recess Represent-
atives Morgan M. Moulder and Gordon H. Scherer.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA— PART 3
^^ MONDAY, JUNE 4, 1956
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
St. Louis, Mo.
executive session ^
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met at 9 a. m., pm-suant to call, in room 1100, the Sheraton-Jefferson
Hotel, St, Louis, Mo., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder (chairman of the
subcommittee) prcsidmg.
Committee members present: Representative Morgan M. Moulder.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; George
C Williams and Raymond T, Collins, investigators.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH JOHN SCHOEMEHL— Resumed
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Schoemehl, I hand you a document bearing
date of April 14, 1947, entitled "Organization Department Report to
Clubs," signed Ray Koch, organization secretary, which I mark for
identification as "Schoemehl Exhibit No. 1."
Will you examine it, please?
(Document handed to the witness.)
Mr. Tavenner. This report refers to certain decisions having been
made by the Communist Party.
Do you know whether the decisions set forth in that report were
made?
Mr. Schoemehl. Well, there was a meeting held at which this was
read, and arrangements were made, the appointments were made to
carry this out.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall at this time the names of the per-
sons who were appointed to fill the various positions indicated in this
document?
Mr. Schoemehl. Outside of the ones of Ray Koch and Al Murphy,
which are in the document, I don't recall who was assigned to the other
duties.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to oft'er the document, and ask that it be
marked "Schoemehl Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Moulder. The document will be marked "Schoemehl Exhibit
No. 1" and admitted in evidence (see Part 1, p. 4731.)
Mr. Schoemehl. That is the original document.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Thank you, sir.
(Wliereupon, at 9:05 a. m., June 4, 1956, the executive session of the
subcommittee was recessed subject to call.)
' Executive testimony ordered released by the committee August 24, 195(5.
81594— 5a— pt. 3 7 4979
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE
ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA— PART 3
MONDAY, JUNE 4, 1966
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
St. Louis, Mo.
executive session ^
The subcommittee of the Committee oii Un-American Activities
met at 6:15 p. m., pursuant to call, in room 1100, the Sheraton-
Jefferson Hotel, St. Louis, Mo., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder (chau'man
of the subcommittee) presiding.
Committee m,embers present: Representatives Morgan M. Moulder
and Gordon H. Scherer.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; George C.
Williams and Raymond T. Colims, iuA-estigators.
Mr. Moulder. Let the record show that the subcommittee, ap-
pointed by the chanman of the full comm.ittee, consisting of James
B. Frazier, Jr.; Gordon H. Scherer; and m^-self, Morgan M. Moulder
as chairman, is in order.
There being Congressman Scherer and myself present, constituting
a quorum, the committee will come to order and proceed.
WiU you hold up your right hand and be sworn, Mr. Jones?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Jones. I do.
TESTIMONY OF OBADIAH JONES
Mr. Moulder. For good reasons the subcommittee has decided
unanimously to hear this witness in executive session.
Mr. Tavenner. That is right.
Will 3^ou state your name, please?
Mr. Jones. Rev. Obadiah Jones.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Jones, you have the right to have counsel
with you if you desire or to confer with counsel at any time during the
questioning if you decide you want to confer with counsel. That is a
practice of the committee, and it is something that we explain to every
witness.
When and where were you born, Reverend Jones?
Mr. Jones. Holly Grove, Ark.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your age?
' Executive testimony ordered released by the committee August 24, 1956,
4981
4982 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Jones. Thirty-eight.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a minister of the gospel in St. Louis?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have j^ou been in the ministry in
St. Louis?
Mr. Jones. Eight years.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you Avere one of the principal witnesses
for the Government in the Smith Act trials in St. Louis in 1954, were
you not?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
any time as a result of the request of the Federal Bureau of Investi-
gation?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sh.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time?
Mr. Jones. From 1947, latter part of 1947, through 1954.
Mr. Tavenner. During that period of time did you faithfully
report to the Federal Bureau of Investigation such knowledge as you
obtained regarding the activities of the Communist Party in St,
Louis?
Mr. Jones. Yes, I tried.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned any particular function to per-
form while a member of the Communist Party? That is, were you
assigned any task by the Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. I was assigned to CRC.
Mr. Tavenner. Civil Rights Congress?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you the head of the Civil Rights Congress
as a result of that assignment?
Mr. Jones. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time?
Mr. Jones. From 1951, I believe it was, to 1954.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the Civil Rights Congress, as organized in
St. Louis, directed and controlled by the Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. In your activities in tlie Communist Party did
you become acquainted with a person bj^ the name of Edwin L.
Richardson?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner, Was he a member of the Commimist Party?
Mr, Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he active m connection with the Civil Rights
Congress?
Mr. Jones. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he hold any position in the Civil Rights
Congress?
Mr. Jones. He was secretary,
Mr. Tavenner. There was an organization established throughout
the United States knoAvn as the National Committee to Secure Justice
in the Rosenberg Cas^e. Was there such an organization formed in
St. Louis?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
COMMXJNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4983
Mr. Tavenner. Was the Communist Party instrumental in the
organization of the St. Louis chapter of the Committee to Secure
Justice in the Rosenberg Case?
Mr. Jones. I don't know whether they were or not.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the Communist Party assist in the operation
of that group of the Committee to Secure Justice in the Rosenberg
Case?
Mr. Jones. May I ask a question?
"V^Tien 3^ou say "assist" do you mean like take part in the activities
of the committee?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Jones. Yes,
Mr. Tavenner. In what general way did that occur?
Mr. Jones. In mass meetings and, well, they had — a couple of times
they had raffling off thmgs to raise money.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall any occasions when representatives
of the Committee to Secure Justice in the Rosenberg Case met with
representatives of the Civil Rights Congress to map out a plan of
action?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us brieflj^ about it.
Mr. Jones. Well, I was one of the persons. And Massingale and
Mr, Tavenner. Is that Joseph Massingale? Is that his name?
Mr, Jones. WiUiam Massingale.
Mr. Tavenner. WiUiam Massingale.
Mr. Jones. Perkins and his wife met at his home to discuss what
we could do to raise money through kind of cooperative work with
CRC and the Rosenberg committee.
Mr, Moulder. What was Perkins' full name?
Mr. Jones, Haven Perkins.
Mr, Moulder, Is that a man's name?
Mr, Jones. Yes,
Mr, Tavenner. Was Clara Perkins, the wife of Haven Perkins,
present and participating in the meeting also?
Mr, Jones. Yes,
Mr, Tavenner. Where did you say that meeting occurred?
Mr. Jones. At their home.
Mr. Tavenner. At the Perkins' home?
Mr. Jones. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Was William Massingale known to you to be a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Were Mr. and Mrs. Perkins known to you to be
members of the Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. I don't know.
Mr. Moulder. Upon what do you base 3^om* answer about William
Massingale?
Mr. Jones. Well, I met with him in party meetings, and carried
out with him direct party functioning. And at one time I got the
party membership list and his name appeared there.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with a person by the name
of Ella Mae Posey?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr, Tavenner. Was she identified with the Civil Rights Congress?
4984 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Jones. No, she wasn't. Directly she wasn't.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know in what Communist activities, if
any, she was engaged?
Mr. Jones. To my knowledge, her engagements were with the
youth department. And, of course, I had no aMiation — Well, no
work with them directly.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the youth department? Do you mean
youth group of the Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You spoke of having had access to the list of the
Communist Party members in St. Louis, I believe.
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not Ella Mae Posey was
on that list?
Mr. Jones. She was.
Mr. Tavenner. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. What were the circumstances under which you
were given access to the Communist Party membership list?
Mr. Jones. To check out certain names and to secure contributions
for the party.
Mr. Moulder. Who gave the list to you?
Mr. Tavenner. Who made that list available to you for that pur-
pose?
Mr. Jones. Let's see. I don't recall just now.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it an official of the Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. Yes; it was an official.
Mr. Tavenner. But you do not recall his name at this time?
Mr. Jones. No. Let's see. Just a minute. I am not clear on
that, who gave it to me.
Mr. Tavenner. You are clear, however, on the fact that it was
given to you by an official of the Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. Are you having difficulty in remembering whether
the functionary who turned this list over to you was a particular
individual or one of several individuals?
Mr. Jones. One of several.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know the names of the several individuals,
one of which was the one who turned the membership list over to you?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were they?
Mr. Jones. Helen Musiel or Al Murphy.
Mr. Tavenner. Both were functionaries in the Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Mr. James Sage and
his wife, Dorothy Sage?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Were they known to you personally to be members
of the Communist Party? Or either of them?
Mr. Jones. Their names did appear on the Communist Party list,
membership list.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Sol Derman?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4985
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Jones. His name also appeared on the ComLmunist Party mem-
bership hst.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell the committee in what Communist
Party activities he engaged, if any?
Mr. Jones. He was reporter for the party during the trial, and
Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by reporter?
Mr. Jones. Well, he reported on the Daily Worker.
Could I say something off the record?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you define in more detail the activities in
which Mr. Sol Derman engaged?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
He was chairman of the Progressive Party, and also reporter for
the Daily Worker during the Communist Party trial in St. Louis.
And he was a functionary of the party so far as carrying out specific
jobs which the party had for him to do, distributing leaflets, col-
lecting contributions for the party, et cetera.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Dr. Sol Londe?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. Not to my knowledge.
I should like to make an explanation there also.
He was with the professional group. All of his work was with the
professionals. It was generally understood with party members that
they was members of the party, but as to clarity of identification,
whether or not he was a member, you see, I dou't know. I never
met with him in any party meetings, or he never took any part in
party work where it concerned nonprofessionals.
Mr. Collins. But you knew he was a member of a professional
group with the Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. Yes. That is part of my explanation, you see. I
can't
Mr. Collins. But you couldn't positively say?
Mr. Jones. No. That is right.
Mr. Collins. Yet this professional group was known to be a group
of the Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Collins. Did you know other persons in that same category,
in that same group?
■ Mr. Jones. I didn't know anybody in the group. I only met with
him 1 or 2 meetings. He called me quite frequently to make some
kind of announcement at the Alinisterial Alliance of things that was
going on that the professionals were having, and I didn't know the
people in the professional group.
Of course, Sage was — whether he was a member of the professional
group I don't know, but he was very active in the professional group.
I think at one time he was instructor out at Washington University
at that time.
4986 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Williams. Did you ever meet Douglas MacLeod?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Explain the circumstances under which you met
MacLeod.
Mr. Jones. I laiew him as an attornej^ for members of the party,
and he attended Communist Party meetings. I have been in Com-
munist Party meetings v/here he attended, and he took part in Com-
munist Party activities.
Mr. Williams. Were these closed Communist Party meetings that
you attended with him?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Moulder. How many people would be present at such
meetings?
Mr. Jones. Well, numbers would vary. Maybe 15 or 20, and
sometimes 5 or 10.
Mr. Moulder. ^Vliere would they be held usually?
Mr. Jones. At different places. Some of them, I remember, were
at the headquarters when they had the headquarters, and at the home
of Elliott Waxman.
Mr. Moulder. Did you receive a notice as to where such a meeting
was to be held? How would you receive such notice if you did?
Air. Jones. These was regular meetings of the party.
Mr. Williams. .Regular Communist Party meetings?
Mr. Jones. Where party members would loiow that this meeting
was going to be held.
Mr. Moulder. There wouldn't be any special notice of any sort?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Moulder. They were regularly established meetings?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. And this man MacLeod would always be present
at such meetings? That is, regularly?
Mr. Jones. Yes. Frequently he was present at such places.
I would like to say something off the record, if you will permit.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
(Discussion off the record.)
Air. Moulder. Let's go on the record again.
Could you name other persons attending Communist Party meet-
ings while you were a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Tavenner. I think we have testimony regarding all of the
others.
Off the record.
(Discussion off tho record.)
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Harold Hall?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the Commimist Party? And,
if so, what group of the Communist Part}^?
Mr. Jones. The railroad group.
Mr. Tavenner. He was a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir. His name appeared on the Communist
Party membership list.
Mr. Tavenner. Going back to the name of MacLeod, I believe
you stated that he engaged in various Communist Party activities.
Will you describe a little more in detail what you mean.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4987
Mr. Moulder. May I interrupt by asking, were you ever present
at a Communist Party meeting when MacLeod was the principal
speaker?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir; when he was one of the speakers, principal
speakers.
Mr. Moulder. Can you recall on what subject he spoke? "Wliat
was the general philosopliy of his speech or subject, shall I say?
Mr. Jones. The general philosophy of his subject would be the
legality of the Communist Party, I guess. He would always be
stating, telling us members of the Communist Party what you could
do and what you could not do, what the law could do and what the
law could not do about what you did.
And most of the time back in those days we were having quite a
bit of trouble with police brutality and the members of the Com-
munist Party being picked up about distributing leaflets, or sound
equipment on a machine or something, and then he would come into
a meeting and we would have a mass meeting on this affair to see
what we was going to do, map out the strategy and which way to go.
And he would come in and give the legal advice on telling us what to
do, what tyijes of leaflets to get out and what the law could not do.
Even though we would be arrested and carried down, the law
states and the statute of the law says this and it says that, and they
can't do this or they can't do that.
Mr. Moulder. Do you know whether or not he was paid any
compensation? Or was he voluntarily giving his services as a member
of the Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. TJiat I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. I think that covers everything.
Mr. Jones. Well, a couple of times there he was fighting a case on
police brutality where he was paid, they said, for transcripts and
stuff like that. But he was paid some money.
Mr. Moulder. Reference was made a while ago to Ella Mae Posey.
Mr. Williams. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. You say you were personally acquainted with her?
Mr. Jones. I Imew her. Not too personally.
Mr. Moulder. Were you ever present at Communist Party meet-
ings when she was present?
Mr. Jones. Would you state that question again.
Mr. Moulder. Were you ever present at Communist Party meet-
ings when she was present?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moulder. And do you recall where the meetings were held?
Mr. Jones. At the Communist Party headquarters. That was
Mr. Moulder. On Grand Avenue?
Mr. Jones. On Grand Avenue. That is right.
Mr. Williams. 1041?
Mr. Jones. 1041. That is right.
And, of com'se, she carries two names, too,
Mr. Moulder. Do you know the reason for that?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Moulder. Wliat were the names?
Mr. Jones. For a while she was called Ella Mae Posey and Ella
Mae Pappademos.
4988 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
Mr. Tavenner. In what way did the Communist Party endeavor
to exploit the members of your race?
Mr. Jones. Well, they used various tactics. First of all, they would
go into the very lowest neighborhood, the most slummed areas in the
city, and they might pick out a house where it is an old roominghouse
that should be torn down, it is true, where a lot of bums would be
staying that didn't work. They wouldn't work if they had a job.
And, of course, they would go in and start talking to them and
show them where they were living and how they were living and why
they had to live under such conditions — because of the capitalistic —
that this was the manner in which the capitalistic society operated.
And they would then offer to them the manner in which the Com-
munist Party operated.
They also would obviously bring out the point of the depression
because everybody remembered the depression, and they would point
up the fact that in Russia there never had been a depression, and
that they were persons who were interested in the Negro race because
they were the downtrodden and the offcasts and nobody wanted
them or cared anything for them, nobody wanted to help them. And
they were those who were interested in helping them to live better
in better homes and get better jobs and survive better by their way
of living.
That way they were able to just bring in mass numbers of Negro
people into the organization at various meetings whereas maybe they
never did see them no more at another meeting.
Of course, they knew how to do that. They would go out and
have a mass dance and have an interracial dance. They would buy
drinlis and beer and whisky and wine and stuff and give the people
to drink. And you would have an interracial dance, and they would
sit back and say, "Now this is the way we operate. You can't
operate like this no other place. You can't go to the Jefferson Hotel.
You can't go downtown to this place and that place and Negro men
and white women dance together and colored women and white men
dance together and act lil^e human beings, marry if they want to,
as far as that matter. And this is the way of life."
Of course, there are in every race, I guess, those people who are
easUy led. They just don't think about anything. And certauily it
is true in our race. The person is looking for something for nothing.
And he says well, everybody wants to be helped regardless of what
his condition might be. And then he would fill out an application and
maybe he would come back and maybe he don't. Nine times out of
ten he would never come back again, but he would be the means of a
dollar for an application blanlc, or he would at least be the means for
maybe a couple or so dollars later on because when they took the
application blank, whether he came back or not, they did not forget
him. They would cut that list down and divide it up into various
groups of regular party functioning members, and they would go out
into the neighborhoods.
I have done it a lot of times, and knocking on doors and saying to
this fellow, "Well, it is now time for you to renew your membership"
or "We have a drive going on and we are trying to raise so much money
for this" and collect money and take the money.
That was the way in which the big shots, the big wigs up at the top
survived. They got money in that way.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4989
Those are the most promiDent ways in which they exploit Negroes
and get them into the Communist Party.
And, of com'se, they used the school system for one of the major
ways. They use segregation in the department stores downtown.
They would come down with placards and they would picket some of
these places out here where they had a fountain where colored was not
permitted to be served, and they would go out and tell the Negroes,
"You see, we are for you because nobody else would have done this.
We can go down and eat there. We want you to be able to go down
and eat. So we go down and you can go with us and see us there.
And you laiow that when we do this we are trying to help you."
Naturally, persons would be deceived by the manner in which
they would go about that.
Mr. Collins. When they learned about this deception did they
finally resent this action on the part of the Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. Well, yes. There was a resentment on the part of the
persons, some of the Negroes. But I remind you that most of these
people, most of the intelligent persons, they resented it from the very
beginning. But they didn't go to them. They didn't go to the
professionals or to the decent persons. They went down on Biddle
Street, to persons that were not able to read or write, and they be-
wildered them. And, of course, they themselves, after a whOe, would
resent the action of the Communist Party.
Mr. ScHERER. You realized pretty early that the Communists were
only pretending to champion Negro civil rights for the purpose of
getting them to come in the party, didn't you?
Mr. Jones. Oh, sure, yes, absolutely.
Mr. Scherer. You knew that they wei-en't sincerely interested in
their civil rights.
Mr. Jones. Oh, yes.
I had several very difficult struggles and fights with them on the basis
of what they said they stood for when they really didn't stand for it.
I mean kind of in the back there you could tell he didn't stand for
what he said he would stand for. And we had several fights about it
at various meetings.
I knew from the very outset that they didn't stand for what they
said they stand for. They would denounce Christians under any
faith or any belief. They don't believe in that. They believe in
Stalin and Lenin and Engels. That is the principle for which they
E reach. However, they don't carry out the part of the science of
lenin that I read. They don't carry that out either.
Mr. Moulder. They do not practice what they preach?
Mr. Jones. Not at all.
Mr. Scherer. Negroes are generally religious people?
Mr. Jones. Sure.
Their main purpose was, however, so they could get enough people
in number. They knew that some of the number would fall off.
But if he brings in, say, a hundred persons, and out of that hundred
he might be able to convince 50, may we say, well, his number was
growing stronger. And that was his main purpose, to get his number
s.trong enough, and with the force that they have in Russia, and the
connections that they have, when they had enough people here to
say, well, I've got enough in St. Louis to do what I want to do here.
4990 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA
And then he makes some connections somewhere with Russia and tiien
he will do what he wants to do. That is all the only piu-pose for it.
Mr. ScHERER. They did that same thing with the Jewish people,
pretended to champion the cause of anti-Semitism.
Mr. Jones. Well, in 1948 here in St. Louis they had everything
set up. It was all ready for the revolution. It was going to be in
1948. There was a public speech about it. I became quite excited
about that because they preached it so strongly, and they were all
so convinced and they knew so much about what they was talking
about. I became a little bit afraid. I said, "Well, 1 guess I will
go down in Arkansas somev/here to get out of the revolution." I
certainly didn't want to be in it.
That was when they were advising everybody to get guns and
ammunition and be ready for whatever took place.
They made a statement
Mr. Collins. YHio advised you to do this?
Mr. Jones. This was Ralph Shaw. And right after— this was just
before he left. And then right after him came Jim Forrest.
Mr. ScHERER. Were both of those men white?
Mr. Jones. Yes; they were leaders of the Communist Party.
They were organizers.
Mr. Moulder. They were actually trying to stir up a race riot and
then point at that as an example of how colored people were being
abused. In other words, they instigated it to cause trouble, and then
later on they would point it out as an example.
Mr. Jones. That is right.
Mr. Moulder. In other sections of the country.
Mr. Scherer. Of the dissatisfaction.
Mr, Collins. Did they ever mention Detroit or Chicago as
examples of this?
Mr. Jones. Well, there was a couple of incidents that they did
refer to in Chicago. There was one time in Chicago they had a
project there that was supposed to be built for Negroes, as I under-
stand it.
Mr. Collins. Down in South Chicago.
. Mr. Jones. Yes.
And when they were completed, seemingly, white people moved in.
Well, the Communist Party got enough members of the party together
and they went in and moved out some of the white people. And they
would move out a white family here and move in a colored family.
And some way or another they did that business there to kind of
forcefully get the party members, mostly Negroes, into this project.
I was there one time, and they had a big parade and picket line,
and they barricaded this whole area there because some nonparty
members were attempting to fight back by runnmg automobiles
through the streets, through this place. And they took the beds
and mattresses and chairs and things out and barricaded the streets
and had a big parade and went down to the mayor of the city to get
official barricades put up. They refused to do that.
Mr. Scherer. What year did this conversation about revolution
and rioting take place?
Mr. Jones. That was in 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. May I ask one further question?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST ST. LOUIS, MO., AREA 4991
In what way did the Commi.mist Party iitiHze the Civil Rights
Congress?
Mr. Jones. For the purpose of educating people and making them
ready for membersliip in the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. I have no questions.
Mr. ScHERER. I have no further questions.
Mr. Tavenner. Were 3'ou acquamted with Hershel Walker?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. In what Communist Party activities did he engage?
Mr. Jones. All of them. I met with him in closed party meetings.
Mr. Moulder. The subcommittee will stand in recess. Before
standing in recess, we want to thank you. Reverend Jones, for appear-
ing before us and giving us the benefit of the information you have
by your testimony.
Mr. Scherer. I think he has made a valuable contribution, and
the record should show that we congratulate him and express the
thanks of the Congress and this committee for his fine testimony.
(Whereupon, at 7:30 p. m., Monday, Jime 4, 1956, the executive
session of the subcommittee was recessed subject to the call of the
Chair.)
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